Forum Etiquette

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crossthreaded

New Member
As a member, I have no problems with the board in its current form. I have the freedom to ignore posts from those I think rude, lazy or incoherent. If it were my job to offer technical support here, I might have a different view.

We are all human beings. Introducing a form is like putting a robot in the way of normal human discourse. how many times have you found yourself filling out a form which doesn't allow you to express your thoughts when a simple plain box (like the one I'm typing in) would allow you to in three lines?

I agree with boriz on this. Students using the forum for help are showing initiative; commercial folk may be saving themselves a few pounds, but it's their neck they're risking on some product development; we only have to offer advice.

I am almost universally amazed at the politeness and level of help offered here. Don't change a thing unless you have to.
 
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boriz

Senior Member
“it took me 8 hrs to get the darn light to blink”

And I bet it was all the sweeter for it. I sometimes find myself doing a barely perceivable jump-for-joy and a little dance, while repeating the words of Col. John "Hannibal" Smith (from the A-Team) “I love it when a plan comes together”.

It’s one of the reasons why I have this hobby.
 
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LizzieB

Senior Member
I've been following this (and the other) thread with interest. I've been a moderator for several years on a higher volume and wider scope forum than this one. The sad truth is that you can have all the forms, FAQ's, and guidelines you want, you can put prominent "If you have this particular problem READ THIS FIRST" sticky posts, and it will have only a minimal effect on the way that issues get posted. If you go overboard though it will make your forum an unfriendly place, and I think that's the last thing that most forum admins are aiming for.

As a volunteer member though there is nothing wrong in making choices about when you decide to lend your help, and when you sit back and let the paid support folks handle the issue. Just don't be pissy about it.
 
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westaust55

Moderator
Good to see some input from a few newer members. Some worthwhile input as well.

I guess the aim is to get those with problems to explain more fully up front. While a form may be seen as Draconican there are other polite methods as well to extract the same sort of information.


MyC, your PM box is full.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Mycroft2152 said:
It is reasonable for a commercial user to post questions on the forum. But the response should come from Technical / Hippy, not a member. After all, that is what their / his job is.
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I've always said that I think commercial users should have the courtesy to indicate as such so those who could answer can choose whether to or how to. Failing to do so can otherwise leave people feeling aggrieved that their skills and knowledge are being abused. It's much the same if someone comes here to get their coursework done without declaring that's what they are after..

As to answering commercial customers and those wanting their coursework done - I believe that is up to everyone to decide for themselves and to respond in the best way they think fit.

Any commercial customer asking questions here will likely have arrived as most others do to seek the combined wisdom of the forum members which is invariably far greater than any individual's. As long as the commercial nature is declared I've never had a problem with that on any forum I've used.

There are no hard and fast rules as to how any forum member must or must not respond to any posting; that's entirely a matter for each member's conscience and will usually be decided on a case by case basis.

Mycroft2152 said:
Think of it this way: You present a new design to your boss and he asks: "How did you come up with the design?" ...
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I've got information from the most dubious of sources in the past. The important thing is to get information which is correct and then to verify it as such. Often it's more about getting on the right path than getting a final solution.

The answer to the question posed IMO is; "I consulted with the experts and used the best combined knowledge I had access to". To me it has never mattered whether the correct and useful answer has come from a newbie or a well established professional with letters after their name. All commercial customer have to ultimately take responsibility for whatever they do no matter where the information comes from.
 
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boriz

Senior Member
“people feeling aggrieved that their skills and knowledge are being abused”

I really don’t understand that. Helping someone is helping someone. How can it possibly matter what ‘type’ of person they are. A commercial developer could get vital information for his next product from this forum just by using the search, and never posting a question or even registering on the forum. Same for a student. If that happens, are they abusing you? Are they abusing this forum?

The web is a public place. Once published on the web, it’s everyone’s. You have no control over where it is disseminated or how it is used. If you are not happy with that, then don’t publish on the web. If you don’t understand that, then it’s time you did, or you are going to be disappointed. Like the ‘Music industry’. (A phrase that makes me seethe. But don’t get me started.)
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
boriz said:
“people feeling aggrieved that their skills and knowledge are being abused”

I really don’t understand that. Helping someone is helping someone. How can it possibly matter what ‘type’ of person they are. A commercial developer could get vital information for his next product from this forum just by using the search, and never posting a question or even registering on the forum. Same for a student. If that happens, are they abusing you? Are they abusing this forum?

The web is a public place. Once published on the web, it’s everyone’s. You have no control over where it is disseminated or how it is used. If you are not happy with that, then don’t publish on the web. If you don’t understand that, then it’s time you did, or you are going to be disappointed. Like the ‘Music industry’. (A phrase that makes me seethe. But don’t get me started.)
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Borz,

You are confusing the availiblitiy information and the fact that isome effort must be made to create it and placed it there.

Of course, once info is on the web it is public knowledge and has public access.

But someone had to place it there and someone has to find it when needed.

It comes down to a personal choice whether to place information in the public view, whether is new knowledge or simply a rehash of old.

I do not about you, but when I do commercial work, I like to get paid. I am well beyond the ego boosting stage of "ooh, look, that was my idea that I gave them".

The same goes for students, they have to do the work, whether it is reading the manual or doing a forum search, to learn. I don't say: "I am a great teacher because I gave them all the answers!"

This is just a basic philosophical difference that we have and that's OK. I know that I am teaching my children the proper way to do things.

TANSTAAFL! *

Myc


- There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
boriz said:
“people feeling aggrieved that their skills and knowledge are being abused”

I really don’t understand that. Helping someone is helping someone. How can it possibly matter what ‘type’ of person they are.
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It's about doing work for a company who then profits from the effort but gives nothing back in return. All questions take time to think about and write down and some people feel that if a commercial venture wants this then it is only fair and proper that they pay for that effort.

If someone knocks on your door and asks for help changing a tyre on a car you may choose to help out of the kindness of your heart. If you then found it was a professional repairman too lazy to do the work they were called out to do for themselves you would probably feel a little upset having done all the work while they get paid for your efforts. Not only have you lost the time you spent, you have also not received fair payment for what the effort was worth.

For information already published, that's fair game for everyone ( providing copyright and licensing terms are respected ). It's when people ask for specific help and people put effort in which hasn't already been done when the issue arises.
 
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Jeremy Leach

Senior Member
Yes, I think there's often a difference between general information about how to do things picaxe (available from searches), and tailored, crafted responses specifically to an individual's situation.

Going back to the read-me files .... I've thought of the solution : Call it 'Don't read me', and then everyone will read it ! (a bit of reverse psychology ;))
 
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boriz

Senior Member
Of course. I agree completely that work should be paid for. I just don’t consider this to be work. And I certainly don’t see how an already published contribution can later suddenly change into work if it becomes apparent that the beneficiary might profit from it, either financially or educationally. (In this context, Beneficiary means anyone in the universe with internet access)

If you want a professional arrangement, then fine, no problem. Agree to a price and then do the work. But anything you do for free, or out of the goodness of your heart, or for the kick of teaching, whatever, should remain just that and not be tainted by subsequent petty arguments over who’s profiting from what.

Personally, I get a kick from helping people. It’s its own reward. And if I find out later that something I did was used for profit. Fine. I’m proud to have been involved. Credit would be nice, but I’m not going to get upset about it, and I’m certainly not going to feel ‘abused’. I get my reward when someone says ‘Ah yes, I see it now, thank you’. Maybe I’m just weird.
 
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LizzieB

Senior Member
I don't see the business issue as black and white as some of you. Don't you ever search for information on the internet to help you in your job? If a google search brings up a link to a posting on a forum do you say "no thanks, I'm not going to look at that"?

I'm not going to do someone's work for them, but I don't mind helping someone learn something that will help them in their job - as others have helped me over the years.
 
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Jeremy Leach

Senior Member
For me I guess I prefer helping people share the enjoyment and creativity of picaxes and electronics, rather than helping them enjoy profiting from it. I'm more likely to just give pointers to someone with a commercial angle.
 
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Ralpht

New Member
Boriz,

If someone asked for help as opposed to finding the info on the web, and did not tell you that it was for a commercial product then went off to make money on it, would you really feel that good about it? You did the work, some one else made a profit and worst still that someone did not learn anything other than there are suckers out there that will do any thing just to "feel good"

To me that is morally questionable. Fine if you were told ahead of time that it is a commercial product, and the designer is a bit over his head, but not if deception was involved, however minor.

If you do something for someone, instead of having them do the majority of the work, I personally think that you are doing them an injustice.
What have they really learnt, other than there are suckers around that will do the hard yards for them?

The next time they have a problem, they ask and some bleeding heart does it for them again .... and again ....and again. You are not teaching them anything and they are not learning much. They might learn a bit from copying but not as much or as well as if they tried themselves from the start.
Sad to say but that is human nature.

Been there, done that and got the T shirt to prove it. These days I tend to hold back and watch what happens first
 
C

crossthreaded

New Member
Those of us who play with picaxe for fun can enjoy the intellectual challenge of solving someone's problem for them without thinking about whether they are doing a school assignment, or trying to make money off ours skills. Ethical considerations aside, why wouldn't we do that? OK, I'd worry if someone was designing a bomb anti-handling device. If someone is obviously doing an assignment, I'll hint, but not supply the whole answer. If it's commercial, so what? I enjoy solving the problem, someone else puts development money, time and business skills in and makes more money - why would I care?

I do Soduko too, no-one pays me. The answer does not matter (so long as it's right). if I just wanted the answer I'd use the program I wrote to solve the darn things. if someone takes my answer and enters it in a competition and wins 50 quid, why would I care - they had the initiative, the money mattered to them, I still had fun finding the answer.

It's more fun still to solve the questioner, rather than the question. What's the meta-question - why does this person not understand - how can I unblock their mental freeze. This often allows a minimal hint approach to the real problem, then it leaves people open to learn something. Of course while I'm trying to be subtle some numpty comes along and offers the whole solution on a plate - that spoils my fun, but perhaps giving the whole explicit solution gives them as much fun as hinting gives me.

I propose a spreadsheet for the answers to identify the answer as misleading, a gentle hint, a heavy hint, half the answer, a brilliant example of something that almost solves the problem or the-full-answer-look-I-spent-a-week-of-my-own-time-on-this. Then the questioners would get a chance to decide how much learning and fun they wanted.
 
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tiscando

Senior Member
@Myc:
Great questionaire;); I would like it to appear in the 'post new thread' window. This would make sorting out problems of each picaxer (much) quicker by filling in the commonly required details.
When I first signed in to this forum, I saw a message of forum rules. I don't remember it including a template of how to post about a problem, and possibly also not saying do a forum search first.
Also, the forum search needs to be more comprehensive, just like Google's advanced search.
Here's me doing it:

Project Purpose (Describe what your project is intended to do): Measuring picaxe timings

Project Type: (school / commercial / hobby): Hobby

PICAXE experience level (new / a bit / intermediate / expert / guru): Intermediate, or possibly expert

General Electronics experience level (new / a bit / intermediate / expert / guru): expert

The type of PICAXE chip you are using (08M / 14M / 18X, etc): All picaxe chips being tested and measured

Type of board (breadboard / AXE20 / AXE21 / AXE022 / AXE023 / CHI030 / CHI035 / CHI040 / by PH Anderson / Homemade / Other): Breadboard

Program cable (Serial / USB / AXE26 / AXE27 / homemade): Serial (I got stereo sockets that didn't fit into my breadboard, so I sheathed into the wire, bare ~1cm of each core, and clamped each core into a 5.04mm pitch connector block which I could insert to and remove from my breadboard easily.
Later, I would use a 2.54mm pitch molex header instead.

The problem(s) I am having is: Well, I'm doing an investigation.

My program code: Testing all commands

Photographs: none yet

Datasheet links: none

Additional information: I'm using a 6v plug-in transformer, which measured 8v to 9v@0A, and connected it via a simple home-made regulator, which always worked, to the picaxe.
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Tiscando,

Thanks, but the form was a cooperative effort by Westaust55 and myself. Two guys, literally a half a world apart.

The origjnal text is in the Sandbox, feel free to post it whenever you feel there is a need.

Myc

Note:
You may have to post it multiple times, since some newbies neveR geT a clue.
 
R

Ralpht

New Member
crossthread:

There is a world of a difference between helping someone who truely has hit a brick wall thru lack of experience/knowledge or a simple mental blockage and someone who can't be bothered doing their project and wants every thing handed to them on a silver platter.

When you look at the stats of these " I can't be bothered" questions, most of the time they haven't even done the basics. There is no intellectual challenge in giving the same basic answer time and time again.

I used to teach electronics and my motto was " Think or Sink"

I think the questionaire is great and everone not just newbies should follow that format each time they post a question.
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
RalphTeichel said:
crossthread:

There is a world of a difference between helping someone who truely has hit a brick wall thru lack of experience/knowledge or a simple mental blockage and someone who can't be bothered doing their project and wants every thing handed to them on a silver platter.

When you look at the stats of these " I can't be bothered" questions, most of the time they haven't even done the basics. There is no intellectual challenge in giving the same basic answer time and time again.
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Ralph,

Well said.

Unfortunately some would respond, "He's not Referring To me!"

Sadly,

Myc
 
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tiscando

Senior Member
I've just noticed that my thread with Myc&westy's questionaire filled in, followed by Myc's reply, got moved from thread Picaxe code timings to this thread. However, I've completed the questionaire to go with it's origional thread. Any reasons why this has been moved?
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
tiscando said:
I've just noticed that my thread with Myc&westy's questionaire filled in, followed by Myc's reply, got moved from thread Picaxe code timings to this thread. However, I've completed the questionaire to go with it's origional thread. Any reasons why this has been moved?
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It was moved from the thread started by OCM770 because it appeared to be largely unrelated to OCM770's query ( your reply was @Myc and @BB ) and more about the benefit of the questionnaire, and how you intend to go about your own project.

On the subject of questionnaires -

There is undoubtedly usefulness in obtaining good and concise information from those asking questions however real usefulness comes from asking the right questions. It is irrelevant to ask many questions which could be asked of a poster which are not pertinent to what they are asking nor necessary to be able to answer the question. As is usually the case, there's no 'one size fits all'.

The key to good communications is having empathy and extracting the required information in a subtle manner which doesn't make the poster feel unwelcome, scared-off or feel they are getting 'the third degree' line of questioning.

One of the great assets of this forum is its friendly and welcoming nature plus its tolerance of those who have limited experience of forums and asking questions and I would hate to see that diminish.
 
M

Mycroft2152

Senior Member
hippy said:
It was moved from the thread started by OCM770 because it appeared to be largely unrelated to OCM770's query ( your reply was @Myc and @BB ) and more about the benefit of the questionnaire, and how you intend to go about your own project.

On the subject of questionnaires -

There is undoubtedly usefulness in obtaining good and concise information from those asking questions however real usefulness comes from asking the right questions. It is irrelevant to ask many questions which could be asked of a poster which are not pertinent to what they are asking nor necessary to be able to answer the question. As is usually the case, there's no 'one size fits all'.

The key to good communications is having empathy and extracting the required information in a subtle manner which doesn't make the poster feel unwelcome, scared-off or feel they are getting 'the third degree' line of questioning.

One of the great assets of this forum is its friendly and welcoming nature plus its tolerance of those who have limited experience of forums and asking questions and I would hate to see that diminish.
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Aww Hippy,

That sure sounds like someone toeing the company line to protect their commercial assets.

What makes the forum great is the wide range of knowledge, experience and personalities. Yes, as in your cutlery drawer, there are a lot of forks, knives, and spoons.

Myc
 
E

eclectic

Moderator
I'm trying to imagine being say 12 or 13.
Intelligent.
But not yet fully literate.
Not yet in possession of higher-level social/interactive skills.

I have a question, but, I'm not quite sure how to ask it.

I go to a Library.

First librarian says “Look for it yourself”.

Second librarian says “Fill in this form”. (It's a very large and daunting form.)

The third librarian talks to me, and helps me to understand.

Hmmm?

I may not know terms like meta-cognition or cognitive-conflict,
but I know where I won't go again.

e
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Electric,

That was well said.

The critcal difference is that the librarian subconsciously evaluated the student and their needs. And asked the same questions in a very effective manner for that student at that time.

We do not have that option on the forum.

How far do you really think the librraian will go if the student loud and whiny?

Myc
 
E

eclectic

Moderator
Mycroft2152 said:
Electric,

That was well said.

The critcal difference is that the librarian subconsciously evaluated the student and their needs. And asked the same questions in a very effective manner for that student at that time.

We do not have that option on the forum.

How far do you really think the librraian will go if the student loud and whiny?

Myc
Click to expand...
1. Consciously, not subsconciously.
And, the Magic Word.... EMPATHY.

2. I think we do.

3. Years pass.
I'm a librarian.

Case 1
In walks a polite, reasonable, questioner.
Lots of help provided.
Questioner provides feedback
Help provided. ....

Case 2.
In walks a little scrote.
30 seconds.
Next please!

e.
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Notice how helpful the postscipt that 212 has been using.

__________________
Project Type: (hobby):
PICAXE experience level (a bit):
General Electronics experience level (a bit):
The type of PICAXE chip you are using (08M):
Type of board (Homemade):
Program cable (Serial):
_________________

If nothing else, it shows that e is willing to learn and making an effort. It is a ral pleasure help someone like that. And I amsure that he will get very positive responses and help.

Myc
 
J

jodicalhon

New Member
Mycroft2152 said:
Aww Hippy,

That sure sounds like someone toeing the company line to protect their commercial assets.

Myc
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And that sure sounds like someone trying to invalidate another person's argument without having to actually provide any contrary arguments.

When's the last time you provided any concrete help to a questioner?
 
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W

westaust55

Moderator
First, read post 1 of this thread. We set out to bring some decorum and rules to the forum . . . .

Next, I set out to see what other forums might be doing along the lines of informing members how to use the forum. But ended up thinking, are we trying to reinvent the wheel?
Have a look at this thread on Chief Delphi where a similar thread ran about 3 years ago.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?p=385858#post385858
The comments cover various issues including:
(a) people being critical,
(b) not reading the manuals,
(c) slang type poor spelling (as opposed to different “official” languages), etc

Finally look at:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32993
 
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jodicalhon

New Member
Post #1 of this thread chronicles bgrabowski's disappointment with the condescending tone of replies to newcomers.

There is already a document dealing with decorum and rules for the forum. It is in the form of a 'sticky' entitled "Read Me First!", and can be found at the top of the Active Picaxe Forum page.

The idea of a 'Forum Elite' seems to be forming. This group sees every question as being directed at them rather than to the general Forum, and seems to believe it has to right to lecture forum members on their spelling and the general form of their questions in a pompous and condescending manner.

If people don't like the question, or don't like the questioner, or don't like the form of the question, or don't want to deal with forum members who use text speak, then that is their prerogative.

The simplest way to deal with this is (here's a novel idea!): don't answer the question.

As post #1, which you directed me to, states: 1. If you cannot say something helpful don't reply.
 
2

212

Senior Member
I have been a member on a homebrew trail camera site since 03. I am a member of the development team, and have 8643 posts on there. Most of the new members have the same questions...like on here. Yes, we get tired of answering them over and over again, and yes, they could find the answer to almost anything to do with building a trail cam by using the search. I tell ya though, I have trouble finding my own answers I posted myself, there is just too much to sift through. I used to let myself get annoyed with the new guys, but you just never know who is on the other end. Some of the dumbest sounding posts came from people that are not dumb, just unfamiliar with this particular thing. We have members there that worked on developing the transistors we use, and actually patented the opto for example. There are professional engineers, professional photographers, groups of researchers doing work all over the world...

Instead of answering rudely, just let another member answer. People you have helped before, like to help someone else, with what you taught them. Newer members remember what it was like when they first joined, and can relate to the "new guy".
 
A

alband

Senior Member
I wonder whether someone could post something about how to search the forum. Quite often the info is in a thread but the search just doesn't find it (I've found). Is there some kind of method (other that "...*"?
 
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BeanieBots

Moderator
Funny you should mention that alband. I agree that the search feature is not very good, but one of the things not mentioned yet is thread is titles.
"help" does not convey the topic very well and doesn't help when searching. Incorrect spelling and the use of text speach does not help the search function either.

There is the "advanced" search. You can match phrases and list by member name.
 
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westaust55

Moderator
Searching the Forum

BeanieBots said:
Funny you should mention that alband. I agree that the search feature is not very good, but one of the things not mentioned yet is thread is titles.
"help" does not convey the topic very well and doesn't help when searching. Incorrect spelling and the use of text speach does not help the search function either.

There is the "advanced" search. You can match phrases and list by member name.
Click to expand...
For those who looked at the links I provided back at post 74 they would know that . . . .

1. The first link showed that Chief Delphi was also a forum powered by VBulletin just like this forum, and

2. The the second link was to a thread about "How to search"

I nearly always use the advanced search option. Particularly useful if you can remember who posted the orginal details you are looking for. Plus you can limit the areas to search (archives only or active area only, etc)

I have found that putting several words (a text string) in quotes still results in finding instances of just one of the words :(
 
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