Forum Etiquette

[bgrabowski]

I have become increasingly disappointed with the negative and condescending tone of replies from some forum members in response to requests for basic information and/or help with programming from schoolchildren and beginners.

Can we lay down some ground rules here. I'll start the ball rolling with

1. If you cannot say something helpful don't reply.

 

[westaust55]

For queries:

1. State whether the project is for school/college/university or hobby

2. If relatively new to the forum, state your level of experience with PICAXE and electronics in general

3. Avoid the use of slang language – there are members here from many countries

4. put quotes and code examples in the appropriate format controls [quote or code] and [/quote or /code] - AND read the sticky posts at the top of the forum

5. State exactly what hardware is being used (which PICAXE, if commercially made which circuit/proto/starter-board, etc) – and give a link to all a datasheets for non Rev Ed components where there are the area of difficulty

6. Upload a copy of the program that you need assistance with

7. If it is a circuit you have designed for yourself, upload the circuit diagram

8. Provide a CLEAR photo of the project (can pick construction errors when the circuit diagram is okay)

9. Describe clearly what the problem is (not just that “it does not work&#8221.

10. Describe what you are expecting the project to do.

11. Describe clearly what tests you have done before asking for assistance with a problem

12. DO let people know when the problem has been solved. A Thanks to those who helped would be nice. Maybe post the final project in a completed projects area.

13. Do not “BUMP” a thread for at least 24 hours and preferably 36 hours just because you have not received a quick reply. Remember that the person with the answer you need may be on the other side of the world and up to 12 hours time difference.


For responses:

14. If you cannot say something helpful don't reply.

15. Make sure that you answer the actual question asked. Sometime a question may be misread, but do not deliberately head of at a tangent with suggestions without first addressing the actual question.

16. When referencing the PICAXE manuals state which manual (1, 2 or 3) and the page number (in the current version)

 

[rmeldo]

A lot of steps there.

A good check list though. Maybe it could be included in the "read me first" thread.

Some forum/groups have a message generator which asks questions so that the resulting message has similar format/contents

 

[hippy]

All good rules and I'd add -

* Remain polite, don't be rude

* Don't ridicule posters who may have got things wrong or misunderstood

* Be tolerant of spelling and grammar errors, ask if something needs clarifying

* Don't expect others to have the same knowledge or implicit understandings gained through one's own experiences.

* If being critical, reflect on what is being written and how it will be perceived before hitting 'send'.

Don't forget that many posters may be new to the PICAXE, electronics, this forum, and forums in general. It may be the first time they have to seek help through consulting with unknown others and may not understand 'the rules', best etiquette or what helps people to best help them. A little tolerance often goes a long way.

It's also true; first impressions linger. That applies to people posting for the first time and how people take the responses they receive when they first get here.

 

[Jeremy Leach]

Well, although I agree with a lot of this, I think a long list of 'rules' might be off-putting to newcomers. I think Hippy has summed it up concisely enough.

Also, going a bit off-topic - one of the things I find interesting in forum's like this is that it's a great leveller - ideas of hierarchy due to experience, qualifications or seniority aren't very obvious - and it's fascinating how this lack of social structure sometimes leads to these type of discussions where we try to self-regulate - I'm sure psychologists would love it

 

[212]

I would suggest schoolchildren and beginners just mind their manners and be respectful, that would solve most of the issues. We, yes I'm one of the beginners, need to think before we ask, and listen closer to the good people replying. We should know that they are doing their best to help us. And on the side of us beginners, I personally have never "finished" a project I started, the more I learn the better it gets...thanks!

 

[Jeremy Leach]

My message to newcomers is: Yes, adhere to basic etiquette, but please don't be put off by any discussions like this - your voice is equal to anyone else's here

 

[Andrew Cowan]

Thanks to Dippy (who is currently abroad) for being patient when teaching me about driving FETs.

So patience!

A

 

[westaust55]

Rules of etiquette are everywhere.

At home children (should) have rules, wash your hand before meals, close your mouth when eating, don’t talk when eating, don’t hit your sibling, etc

At school/college/uni we have rules (expectations), wear the uniform, be punctual, do your homework, etc

If one wants a drivers licence there are thousands of rules to know (pity so amny do not know/apply them properly)

Want to buy a house or car there are more rules . . . its called a contract and woe betide those who break the rules

So while a forum such as this is a more open environment, some rules (= etiquette) are equally applicable. I would hardly think that a core set of up to 24 rules was excessive when compared to many other sets of rules.

Unless I mis-read hippy’s words, (All good rules and I'd add ), his points were an extension of those above not a summary/replacement.

It is clear that most newcomers DO NOT read the sticky thread entiltled: “ Read Me First!”. For that matter what constitutes a new comer to this forum; duration as a member?, a certain number of posts?, or some other. While Senior Status is set at 100 posts, some might clearly be able to accept that title in terms of knowledge way earlier whereas some ask so many questions what do I do 1?, what do I do 2?, what do I do 3? That it is clear Senior in terms of knowledge is not there.

Older members are happy to read datasheets and manuals in paper format.
(Those who don’t like reminiscing can turn off here. . .) When I learnt about microprocessors over 30 yeasrs ago, I was living on a small island of the Kimberley Coast for 4 years. A set of paper manuals 75mm (3") thick and no one else with a similar interest around for maybe 1000+ kilometers so it was learning by read manuals, sort out program flow, write code, test, modify if necessary (all in machine code / assembler). When I came to the city for some hardware and software (on cassettes), I recall the computer store where I had previously purchased a printer by mail commenting that they imagined me sitting in a tin shed on a rock in the ocean typing "Let me out of here".

I for one prefer a paper copy – I can take it away from the computer to read in comfort.

By comparison, it is a known fact that many younger generations seek more instant information.

Both groups need to understand how/where the others are coming from or what their attitudes/expectations are.

Unless people are willing to read manuals and data, almost irrespective of age, they will be continually asking questions but never really learn how to do it for themselves.

As I have mentioned before, I would really like to see a mechanism that permits membership only after the forum rules/ etiquette have been read.

 

[BeanieBots]

As I have mentioned before, I would really like to see a mechanism that permits membership only after the forum rules/ etiquette have been read.

Whilst I fully agree with that in theory, I don't think it will actually make much difference in reality because there is no way of determing that anything has actually been READ. A bit like EULAs on software. You must agree to the terms and conditions before installing the software by clicking "I AGREE".
How many people read them and how many abide by them? It just becomes another thing that must be clicked as part of the installation process. Just like opening the "read me first" would become another process required before registering to post.

What I think might be of benefit is a set of "radio buttons" to select PICAXE type and PE version prior to posting to force key data to be submitted. At least it catch those "my output 3 does'nt work" only to find out 15 posts later that it was an 08M.

Maybe if the "readme first" was in bold red it would stand out more. At the moment it just looks like another post with a title that does not relate to the sought after answer.

 

[Ralpht]

I also fully agree with everything said above.

Instead of the buttons as mentioned by BB, maybe we also should insist on the person asking for help give a consise but accurate list of what they did to try to solve their problem(s) first. Until that is done, minimal if any assistance is given.

I have a problem with the " It don't work - fix it for me" or " My assignment is due tomorrow - I didn't bother doing anything till now - and don't know what I am doing- do it for me now" attitude that is prevalent amongst a lot of newbie posts that I have seen, both in this forum and others I visit.

My father once told me that God helps those that help themselves.
Maybe that should be re-written to " We'll help you after you've tried to help yourself".

I have no problem helping anyone that is willing to learn from their own mistakes. The only way to really learn is to try it, stuff it up then try to fix it yourself. When that fails you can ask for help.

Manners are essential on any forum but attitude is also critical.
Am I being too harsh?

 

[Mycroft2152]

I have no problem helping anyone that is willing to learn from their own mistakes. The only way to really learn is to try it, stuff it up then try to fix it yourself. When that fails you can ask for help.

Manners are essential on any forum but attitude is also critical.
Am I being too harsh?

Ralph,

I don't thinks so.

Using a PICAXE is a hands on experience. Try something, if it doesn;t work try something else, but make an attempt to understand what you are doing and what went wrong.

Unfortunately there are a few bleeding heart educators and show-offs, here on the forum, who like to jump right in and provide the answers.

It doesn't help the newbie in the long run, but it sure makes the responder feel good.

Myc

 

[boriz]

Rtfm !

 

[Mycroft2152]

Rtfm !

LOL!

For those of you who do not text speek, it means:

Read the freaking manual!

 

[moxhamj]

Re "Unfortunately there are a few bleeding heart educators and show-offs, here on the forum, who like to jump right in and provide the answers."

Hmm. That is a problem. I think the forum regulars are well aware of the issues regarding helping 13 year olds pass their assignments. But how do you get the balance right between, say, someone wanting their homework done compared with a 40 year old hobbyist who just wants a bit of help? Clearly the help we provide ought to be different for those two groups.

Bite off someones head, and they won't come back.
But give someone an unfair advantage in an assessed subject, and that isn't fair either.

I'm not sure of the answer. Sometimes I try to tease out some more background from a new poster - and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe we need to be upfront when someone posts a new question - "is this an assignment?" "Are you a hobbyist?", "Are you a student?". Even - "what subjects are you studying?"

But then you run the risk of asking 20 questions when all someone wanted to know was how to get a led to flash.

I'm not sure I know the answers. I do think we should have the debate - too much of this has been unwritten.

 

[premelec]

All fine... I read the "Read Me First" a long time ago - recently I was looking for formatting instructions to include code in my post and couldn't find it anywhere It's in that file.... I would prefer that there were a heading on 'Message Formatting' or some such on the main headers... meantime - "Read Me Again" could work... And thanks to everyone for being courteous and patient... it helps us all to actually complete projects and understand more.

 

[Mycroft2152]

Re "Unfortunately there are a few bleeding heart educators and show-offs, here on the forum, who like to jump right in and provide the answers."

Hmm. That is a problem. I think the forum regulars are well aware of the issues regarding helping 13 year olds pass their assignments. But how do you get the balance right between, say, someone wanting their homework done compared with a 40 year old hobbyist who just wants a bit of help? Clearly the help we provide ought to be different for those two groups.

Bite off someones head, and they won't come back.
But give someone an unfair advantage in an assessed subject, and that isn't fair either.

I'm not sure of the answer. Sometimes I try to tease out some more background from a new poster - and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe we need to be upfront when someone posts a new question - "is this an assignment?" "Are you a hobbyist?", "Are you a student?". Even - "what subjects are you studying?"

But then you run the risk of asking 20 questions when all someone wanted to know was how to get a led to flash.

I'm not sure I know the answers. I do think we should have the debate - too much of this has been unwritten.

Well said, Doc!

Let's keep it in perspective. Your comments were by someone who enjoys the hobby and enjoys sharing his knowledge.

In actuality, this forum is a commercial site, set up for one singular purpose -- to increase sales; and of course one cannot annoy potential customers.

The generous forum members have saved Rev_Ed many thousands of dollars (pounds) by their efforts.


Here is a compromise:

For requests by hobbyists, of whatever age, willing to make an effort, the forum members will respond.

For those customers who just want answers, Rev_Ed (aka Hippy) will do the honors.

That is the best of both worlds.

Myc

 

[westaust55]

Something like radio button as suggested by BeanieBots would be good in theory. Attached is an example of what could be a starting point.


However, while Rev Ed “created” the forum, it is driven by VBulletin, which therefore dictates how much Rev Ed can do to “tune” this forum such as adding radio buttons. It just may not be possible.

If VBulletin is a limitation, maybe as an alternative, we can prepare a similar “standard question” template in a thread that can be cut and past so that those with questions can fill when asking a question. If the enquirer does not provide the details up front then first response can be: “please give us more details” and set out some/all of the standard questions.

Some members do from time to time ask whether the project is hobby or assignment related and frequently we need to ask exactly which PICAXE is being used. There will always be a few who try to “fly under the radar” but mentors and helpers are here to help not act as forum police.

 

[BeanieBots]

I like your questionaire idea but think it might be a little too daunting for some. Idealy it would be mutually exclusive in so far as the reply to one question would determine subsequent questions. eg if it's a 08M, then no point having any reference to CHI035 etc.
It would also provide some good numbers that we could debate in the statistics thread.
No matter how much we thrash this out, there will always be those who can't be bothered to read and there will always those who will do the work for them.

This still remains one of the most polite and helpful forums out there. If anyone doubts that, try a few of the other forums with a "I can't be bothered" type question and see what happens. Even 'genuine' questions are often slapped down with "sod off, we're too busy chatting with our mates on here to help you" type responses, or "if you don't know that you're too thick to be on here".
So what determines the "flavour" of a forum. Well, it's the members. A particular style will determine who goes and who stays. Who goes and who stays will determine the style. We've had this debate before and I'm sure we'll have it again and I think it's a healthy thing to re-visit occaisionaly. Any blatently offensive posts will and have been deleted very quickly.

We've had some real "ranters" in the past, where are they now? Gone somewhere else to find a forum with members who will bite. We've had the "I can't be bothered" posters before, where are they now? Who cares? I can't be bothered with them

The other interesting point to note is how many of these 'flare ups' actually relate to anything to do with PICAXE? How often has there ever been an arquement over what a PICAXE can or cannot do? How often has there ever been an arguement over lines of code? Sure, there's the "mines smaller and/or quicker than yours" but surely that's a good thing It helps us all learn. If you feel it's boring and just showing off, then don't read it.

All the regulars will remember the Nesbit thread. How much of that related to PICAXE? However, I still think it's healthy to periodicly have such threads as long as they don't become too frequent or cause "genuine" threads to get lost in the noise. They allow personality to come over. It is from such threads that regulars can gain insite into the person behind the post.

 

[westaust55]

I like your questionaire idea but think it might be a little too daunting for some. Idealy it would be mutually exclusive in so far as the reply to one question would determine subsequent questions. eg if it's a 08M, then no point having any reference to CHI035 etc.
It would also provide some good numbers that we could debate in the statistics thread.

Any form will have its proponents and those against the idea.


I did try a version (sitting in the sand box for now) as a text based form that people might cut and paste into a new thread then fill in some details but formatting is a bug bear to keep text and boxes liens up.
In say Excel, I could whip up a form that would do just as you say and give the next set of options based on the answer to the previous form question. Might have a think about the possibilities, but we should first let Rev Ed and Technical advise what might be possible within the bounds of the VBulletin powered forum.

 

[Jeremy Leach]

Oh dear, a lot of this sounds a bit draconian to me (no pun intended).

24 rules do seem excessive. Yep, I should have read that Hippy's rules were an extension - but it's just way OTT , IMHO. There are some tender shoots growing out there and we've got to be careful not to trample on them with a pack of rules.

I must admit I've got very frustrated by people not bothering to help themselves and wanting answers on a plate (and have mentioned RTFM myself in the past!), and have felt annoyed after witnessing the good people here being used - but as I don't often go in for the long-haul nurturing discussions myself, I haven't been pushed as far as you guys

 

[moxhamj]

westaust55 - I just checked your form proforma, and I reckon that is a great idea! I don't think it is too daunting. It also includes all the questions that end up getting asked over 3 subsequent pages currently, and thus would greatly speed up an answer. So it is in the interests of the poster to complete the questions. And I for one would give higher priority to answering questions when someone has gone to all the effort of filling the form in.

Of course, not every question neatly fits into a form. Sometimes a question is a one-line software question, and I'm sure those would get answered quickly without filling in a form.

But for complex questions, the informal/formal idea could be that filling in the form will get a quicker and more detailed answer?

 

[BeanieBots]

Any form will have its proponents and those against the idea.

I did try a version (sitting in the sand box for now) as a text based form that people might cut and paste into a new thread then fill in some details but formatting is a bug bear to keep text and boxes liens up.
In say Excel, I could whip up a form that would do just as you say and give the next set of options based on the answer to the previous form question. Might have a think about the possibilities, but we should first let Rev Ed and Technical advise what might be possible within the bounds of the VBulletin powered forum.

Whilst I still agree with the principle, do you honestly think someone who posts "It doesn't work, fix it for me" is going to do any cut & paste work?
The bit I find the funniest is that the effort put into NOT doing any work is often more than is required to actually fix the issue.

Anyway, like you say, it's all too hyperthetical to take any futher without knowing what is feasable (or agreeable) with Tech and Vbulletin.

 

[westaust55]

Certainly do not disagree.

The old adage is that some comsume more energy try to look busy than actually working.

Sure a form may be pie-in-the-sky concepts.

Had a play this evening with a form in excel. Pull down menus with board types linked to PICAXE chip type - all very do-able.
An excel version plus a text dump sitting in an new post in the same sandbox thread for now.

At the moment all commentary regarding a form is from the experienced/mentor type members.

Would be worth trying to get some feedback from some of the younger and newer members. They might remember how they were asked for more information on more complex problems and have ideas on whether such a form could be useful.

Any newer AND younger members wish to make comments . . . .

 

[rmeldo]

I wish I was younger.... I am certainly new to electronics.


I would not be put off by a form or a long list. That would be a good exercise. Probably it would help in self-diagnosing a problem. I would probably choose to fill it in selectively first, starting from the answers I believe are more likely to help diagnose the problem.

The value of a list like that is also that it could be referred to. If someone has posted a question without providing enough information to allow people to give meaningful advice, they could be asked to fetch the list, populate it with answers, as much as possible and post it to the forum.


It is down to the forum members use the right tone when asking newbies to give more info. So "You will not get any help unless everything in the form is filled in" is not preferred. Maybe a statement like "fill as much as you can because you are likely to get a much better answer" culd be used instead.

Certainly I wuold shy away from a forum which is not friendly to newcomers.

Riccardo

 

[steska]

If I may add to this discussion,
i am using a blank template that I “save as” for each program.
It can be expanded as needed.
Maybe a similar (standardized form), if used would answer many of the questions
or made some of the radiobuttons redundant.

Just a part of my current work:

;********************************************************************
; Project by Steve S
; Date:16/10/2008
; Re:
;
; For PICAXE:28X1
; Clockfrequency:4MHz
;
; File saved as:28X1 IBC Controller
; Version:
; Bytes used:
;
;********************************************************************
; Program function:Control 3pumps AP sys. 
;
;====================================================================
; Pin assignement-Input: ADC time set- ADC0
;                                      ADC1
;                                      ADC2
;                                      ADC3
;
;             Time set switches- portc pin0 (Pump1)
;                                portc pin1 (Pump2)
;                                portc pin2 (Pump3)
;                                portc pin3 (Off Period)
;                           
;                       Sensors- portc pin4 (HW level)
;                                portc pin5 (LW level)
;                                portc pin6 (temp "Trip Point")
;                  -------------------------
;                      
;                      Output: (portB) 0 - LED flash (7seg. dec.)
;                                      1 - Pump1
;                                      2 - Pump2
;                                      3 - Pump3
;                                      4 - Reset Displayline
;                                      5   Data Displayline
;                                      6 - Reset Displaytine
;                                      7 - Data Displaytine
;                                
;                                portc 7 - Emergency Pump
;                                     
;====================================================================
; Var.assignement: B0 - First counter
;                  B1 - Second counter
;                  B2 - Displayline #
;                  B3 - ADC value
;                  B4 - Calculated Value 
;                  B5 - ADC runvalue
;                  B6 - Calculated ADC runvalue
;                  B7 - Runtime counter                  
;====================================================================
; Symbol definitions: not used
;
;====================================================================
; Init routine: 
                let pins = %00000000
                let dirsc = %10000000
                let pinsc = %00000000 
;
;====================================================================
;
; Main program:
  Settimers: pause 2000
            
             if pin0=1 then Timer1
             if pin1=1 then Timer2
             if pin2=1 then Timer3
             if pin3=1 then 
             goto Offtime 
             else 
             goto Runtimers
             endif

 

[Mycroft2152]

Steka,

Good idea!

All of the discussion so far has been related to what vBulletin and Rev_Ed can or is willing to do.

Let's turn it around. There are enough 'regular' members here to welcome and encourage newbies to provide all the info necessary. Here's how:

Create a standard welcome text file with the obvious questions (Westy's is good).

The first "regular" responder cuts and pastes the text into his response. No answers to the questions at this point.

At that point the newbie can cut and paste the form and fill in the blanks and repost.

At this point it is open season on responses.

Myc

 

[rmeldo]

clever .

 

[medvampire]

I guess I will toss my 2 cents in...I have followed this forum daily but havent had to ask many questions...I have played with the picaxe for a few months and have learned a lot...I do have a background in programing and that helps ... I am a relitive new member to the forum but not to Vbulletin, php, or linux...I dont think the sysadmins will allow much for scripting due to the security issues it will allow.
I do think a rewrite of the manuels would be a great ideal...I have read Hippy's site and have gotten many answers there...I have built a few projects based on his code and site...I have found clues in Dr. A work as will... The crew here is great to answer the questions and with a little search you can usely find a soultion...I have in the past in other forums have said RTM but i think the manuels could use a little work
Later
Steve

 

[boriz]

‘Fraid I have to disagree with most of you.

13 or 40. Student or hobbyist. Commercial, educational or private.

ALL have the right to seek answers on the web and more specifically, on this forum.

So what if it is a 13yo pupil trying to get the jump on his class-mates? No one is stopping his class-mates from doing the same thing. Full marks for initiative. At least he is showing that he is interested, motivated and hungry for knowledge. Ask any educator, rare virtues every one.

So what if it’s a commercial developer trying to get a free consult? He may indeed be saving £££’s, but that’s just good business sense. Maybe he will eventually need to bite the bullet and pay someone, maybe it’s a simple/quick solution and 5 minutes here could mean avoiding a rouge who would charge a fortune and take 2 weeks. Maybe he can learn to do it himself. Nothing wrong with trying to educate yourself.

It is a separate and distinct matter when someone wants it all done for them. But that is where all student’s start. It is the responsibility of the educator to re-direct this energy into a more constructive direction. When the seeker is unable to get the ‘solution on a plate’, they will either go away or they will stay and learn. What’s wrong with that?

It is the tone of the answers posted here that determine the kind of forum this is. And I for one am impressed by the time and effort put into helping people and sharing knowledge on this forum.

I agree that some guidelines may be useful to help new posters format there questions so as to include all the relevant information. But a list of rules? No thanks.

I say information and knowledge should be free for all.

 

[Mycroft2152]

Boriz,

I have no problem with the concept that information should be free for all.

But it is a personal choice to provide that free information. There is still a certain amount of work and effort required. I for one choose not to work for a commercial enterprise without being paid. As for doing a students homework, for what purpose? To show off? That only defeats the reason for homework and the trivializes the education
process.

Myc

 

[BeanieBots]

Boriz, the type you describe in your first paragraph is not the issue. Nobody has a problem helping out those who want to learn.
The biggest issue is with those who do not want to learn and have come here to get "the answer" with no effort and will never come back again because they have no interest and the "task" was just something they had to do for their coursework. In all walks of life these are known as "wasters".
They not not only waste their own time but also that of others.

The only doubt in my mind regarding simply giving an answer is that a quick simple answer could be regarded as "damage limitation". It requires minimal investment on the part of those helping and gets rid of the "waster" quickly. On the other hand, it lets them know that they can get away with living of the backs of others and not bothering is OK because they can get away with it. The worst case scenario is that they might obtain a qualification which they are not entitled to have. Otherwsie known as "cheating". Is looking at your neibours' exam paper demonstrating initiative?

As for helping out with commercial issues, I think that one simply comes down to personal preference. All said and done, PICAXE is a commercial product and this forum is here to help the customers who have paid money for that product. For me personally (with no financial interest in Rev-Ed), that would mean evaluating the nature of the question rather than the use of the product.
There is also the "give & take" aspect. I have gained considerable information from this and other forums. Hence, I don't mind paying a little back.

 

[westaust55]

I concur that age is irrelevant.

But the ultimate application or goal of the project is not.


This forum has previously been advised (by lecturers) in past threads that students are encouraged to use this forum for assistance with their class work BUT that the students should identify themselves. I have no problem with that.

But if a project has an educational or business orientated goal and if someone just asks question after question until they have a complete project and never or do any significant work themselves then not only do they not learn the fundamentals thoroughly but it is dishonest.

Would you knowingly employ someone who has gained a degree by cheating?

Would you go to an office or factory and volunteer to work for free for the next week without payment knowing that the owner of the premises would make a handsome profit from you labours?

So while I and many others on this forum are quite willing to expend time for FREE, it is only fair that the degree of input is tempered with respect to the end result. Sure there will be “cheats” but there is little we can do about that, its a moral issue and the honest people can proudly hold their head high.

I, and no doubt many others, find that far too regularly, there is a need to immediately ask for further information from an enquirer before;
- an assessment as to the possible cause of a problem can be determined with either software or hardware, and
- any reasonable suggestion can be made where a member is looking for a recommendation for hardware.

What makes the situation worse is cases when it is clear that the person does not make use of the information or suggestions provided, but jumps about in their own endeavours while continuing to ask for help.

Then there are those with who mentors and experienced members go 10 or more rounds to solve a problem only to never hear from them again or receive one word of gratitude. It will always happen but lets at least try and have some guidelines.

I think that we are staring to go around in circle here somewhat.

There is limited commentary from the newer members and no comment from Rev Ed on their thoughts to date so little ability to move forward in an official way. In the absence of such,

Mycroft’s idea to have a suitably worded pre-defined set of questions to ask a poster who does not give adequate information may be the way to go.

 

[boriz]

Boriz,
But it is a personal choice to provide that free information.

Of course. Exactly why I would resist formal rules.

 

[Jeremy Leach]

I think the sentiments behind the form/list idea are right - to try and tease out key information so the people here can provide the best help. However because of the diverse nature of postings it might not be possible to have a concise standard list, and too many questions (especially irrelevant ones to the topic) are just going to make the forum seem bureaucratic and not fun. Most people hate forms with a passion IMHO, for precisely this reason.

I'd prefer Rev-Ed just putting a simple (maximum of 3 bullets) additional statement to the forum read-me along the lines of:

REMEMBER:
- Forum members are not mind-readers, so please try to give specific information in your posts. For example, details of your setup, the aim of the project, exactly what the problem is.
- The majority of help given here is voluntary, so please show willingness to put effort in yourself and don't expect people to do the work for you.
- Please share feedback on how your issue finally got resolved !

The chances of even this being read are slim, but at least it's quickly digestable and makes the points concisely. I'm not saying it's worded in the best way though.

 

[westaust55]

How about . . . .

 

[BeanieBots]

Good idea Jez,
Maybe if almost that exact wording was in a header on the 'submit' form it would at least be noticed with each and every post. Even better if it could be made to only show with the first post.

Dippy might take offense at the "can't mind read" line though

Edit:
Or as shown by westaust above who just sneaked in there.

 

[Jeremy Leach]

Lol WA ....yep I think something needs to bring this information to the attention of new members ... but maybe tone it down just a little

 

[Mycroft2152]

Boriz,

I have no problem with the concept that information should be free for all.

But it is a personal choice to provide that free information. There is still a certain amount of work and effort required. I for one choose not to work for a commercial enterprise without being paid. As for doing a students homework, for what purpose? To show off? That only defeats the reason for homework and the trivializes the education
process.

Myc

Boriz,

Let me add to the above.

It is reasonable for a commercial user to post questions on the forum. But the response should come from Technical / Hippy, not a member. After all, that is what their / his job is.

Think of it this way:

You present a new design to your boss and he asks: "How did you come up with the design?"

Do you want to respond:

"I got if from a bunch of hobbyists on the web."

Or,

" I contacted technical support and they recommended it."

The first response would not help your annual review for a pay increase.

Myc

 

[wllshaw]

I have found that one of the problems with learning electronics is that the learning curve at the beginning of your education is verticle. I did sit down and read the manuels at the beginning, but when you know nothing, it is sometimes hard to know what to look for, or even ask for. The amount of information that you need to understand to even begin working with picaxes is incrediable. I kept slogging along, and after time some things started to make sense. I still don't understand 2/3s of it, but I keep reading.
When dealing with new students, old or young, I have found that they, and myself, need success and encouragement quite a bit at the beginning. If they don't get it, they usually decide that they just aren't smart enough to figure it out. The waster that visits the forums is usally apparent, and as an educator, it is quite obvious when you are dealing with a cheater. A few in depth questions about his project will usually ellicite a dumb look. They may have the a working project, courtesy of this forum, but they don't understand how they got it, and it is quite apparent.

PS: I hate to admit this, but it took me 8 hrs to get the darn light to blink. I didn't realize or appreciate the accuracy that was required. It has to be perfect or poof nothing works. Sometimes this forum can be curt, but in general it is absolutely great.