Comadore 64/128 or Sinclair ZX80 or Tandy TRS80

[rigidigital]

hI,PLEASE BEAR WTH ME !

Ihave a commodore 64 and a Sinclair ZX home computers,.Will have my hands on them in next weekor two.

The questionis; are the new picaxe equal or more powerful than the commodore 64.
Myunderstandingtht the comodore only supports basic ?

Maybe theTRS-80 supportsmore c language,

Im jusg startingout ( im using the commadore 64emulation progtsm on my win laptop and Sinclair ZX emulation.

thartisfun.

 

[westaust55]

“Powerful” may be dependant upon what facet you are considering.

Both systems use an interpreted BASIC where the user program is stored in a tokenised format and read/interpreted by inbuilt firmware. There were alternative languages for the C-64 (Forth comes to mind) and near end of commercial life there was even a windows type operating system.

The C-64 uses a 6510 microprocessor - a derivative of the 6502. The 6510 almost a microcontroller because it has an onboard 8-bit general purpose directional I/O port (only six I/O pins were available in the most common version of the 6510). In addition, the address bus could be made tristate. The 6510 processor in a C64 operated at 1 MHz and is a Complex Instruction Set processor with 56 instructions and 13 addressing modes. Some of those extra included features such as PUSH and POP to put the accumulator (akin to the PIC W register) value onto the Stack and retrieve the value. The 6510 could directly address up to 64 kBytes (65536) memory locations some of which were occupied by the IO port and in the C-64 the BASIC ROMs and program/games cartridges and external hardware were also in that memory space. It used page switching to access a full 64 kbytes of memory.

By comparison the mid-range PIC chips are Reduced Instruction Set (RISC) devices and typically have only 35 instructions but a more extensive range of inbuilt peripherals including IO ports, program and data memory, timers, analogue to digital converters hardware interfaces for i2c and SPI comms, and even a DAC for the 18M2. It can take more instructions to achieve the same result with a PIC but when you consider the higher speed of the PICs the reduced instruction set can still achieve the same or better throughput. The vastly high speeds of the new PICAXE variants should put them ahead in terms of processing throughput. and with the inbuilt hardware they are generally a lot more versatile “out of the box”.

But to answer with a question, out of curiosity, what is the real reason behind you question ?

 

[rigidigital]

I woldline to controlallmypicsxe and propchipd frommy pc

Thanks for your replies i will read the rest by day end.


I am still in he provess of what i want to accoplish with XBee and UHF. hen Its rewritten innlegubkle formillsenfyoutheprojrctd

Mike,

“Powerful” may be dependant upon what facet you are considering.

Both systems use an interpreted BASIC where the user program is stored in a tokenised format and read/interpreted by inbuilt firmware. There were alternative languages for the C-64 (Forth comes to mind) and near end of commercial life there was even a windows type operating system.

The C-64 uses a 6510 microprocessor - a derivative of the 6502. The 6510 almost a microcontroller because it has an onboard 8-bit general purpose directional I/O port (only six I/O pins were available in the most common version of the 6510). In addition, the address bus could be made tristate. The 6510 processor in a C64 operated at 1 MHz and is a Complex Instruction Set processor with 56 instructions and 13 addressing modes. Some of those extra included features such as PUSH and POP to put the accumulator (akin to the PIC W register) value onto the Stack and retrieve the value. The 6510 could directly address up to 64 kBytes (65536) memory locations some of which were occupied by the IO port and in the C-64 the BASIC ROMs and program/games cartridges and external hardware were also in that memory space. It used page switching to access a full 64 kbytes of memory.

By comparison the mid-range PIC chips are Reduced Instruction Set (RISC) devices and typically have only 35 instructions but a more extensive range of inbuilt peripherals including IO ports, program and data memory, timers, analogue to digital converters hardware interfaces for i2c and SPI comms, and even a DAC for the 18M2. It can take more instructions to achieve the same result with a PIC but when you consider the higher speed of the PICs the reduced instruction set can still achieve the same or better throughput. The vastly high speeds of the new PICAXE variants should put them ahead in terms of processing throughput. and with the inbuilt hardware they are generally a lot more versatile “out of the box”.

But to answer with a question, out of curiosity, what is the real reason behind you question ?

 

[moxhamj]

An intriguing question. In some cases - yes, in some no.

Specs - eg 28X2 4 x program slots with up to 3200 lines of program code in each and if that's not enough you can put program code in external memory too! Up to 64MHz clock speed, 23 I/O pins that can be used as inputs or outputs in any combination, 9 ADC inputs. Supports Serial (RS232), I2C, SPI, UNI/O, and more protocols.

Commodore 64. Slower clock speed. But compare Basic on both, and they might be both roughly around 1000 instructions a second. It depends on interpreted vs compiled basic.

Flexibility to run other languages eg C. Picaxe will lose on that one.

Memory - Commodore 64 is 64k of memory. That is quite a lot more than a picaxe. 64000 lines of assembly code vs 3200 lines of basic, but then again, one line of basic often needs a number of lines of assembly, even with an efficient compiler. Try "DIM MYARRAY(10000)" and see how much memory you have left.

I2C and SPI are not available on a vintage computer, so the picaxe wins there.

Keyboard with buffer - I think the commodore wins on that one but maybe one of those cores on a picaxe can be devoted to running a keyboard.

Display. I think the commodore wins there as the picaxe has no display.

Storage, including mass storage. Picaxe has none. The commodore uses storage media that are hard to get and incompatible with modern formats. Maybe a draw on that one (the 'standard' these days is probably an sd card). Is there a FAT32 driver for an sd card for the picaxe?

Serial ports - commodore and picaxe both have these. I'm not sure how the buffers work for both.

Printer port - possibly a draw.

Analog and digital input/output. Picaxe wins there hands down.

Current consumption - picaxe wins.

These are interesting questions. Retro computing is something I have been playing around with for a couple of years now http://smarthome.viviti.com/propeller

We are looking at doing the Commodore 64 as we have an emulation now for the 6502. Just need the glue logic for the display/keyboard.

 

[John West]

It's most definitely an "apples to oranges" comparison. I've owned and used all the computers mentioned - other than the Sinclair which I owned but never did much with. Each has had its advantages and each has had its disadvantages. Power per dollar gives the win to the PICAXE in any form. Color graphics video output goes to the C-64/128 hands down.

But again - it's an apples to oranges comparison. There aren't a thousand video games available for the PICAXE - nor will there be.

However - back in the day - I spent 3 years of my life inventing an all-purpose "real-world" interface for the C-64. Generally speaking - when it comes to control and monitoring - the entire system did just about what a 28X2 can do.

In electronics - things really do get better with time.

 

[rigidigital]

What exactlyam I tryingto do!

What exactlyam I tryingto do!; , I want to have a Xbee cmected to my main computer. Thern othtrsthough out the business. I am slsowoeringon buying concert cameras, my uncle, owns a dozen Pubs abd he thought it has some potential.

Im happy to any questions from you.

Mike Lynch

 

[westaust55]

What exactlyam I tryingto do!; , I want to have a Xbee cmected to my main computer. Thern othtrsthough out the business. I am slsowoeringon buying concert cameras, my uncle, owns a dozen Pubs abd he thought it has some potential.

Im happy to any questions from you.

Mike Lynch

Hey Mike,

I may be renown for a few typos (and editing to fix them), but you are setting new standards in unreadability. Lack of spaces and the spelling makes for hard reading

 

[BeanieBots]

The questionis; are the new picaxe equal or more powerful than the commodore 64.
Myunderstandingtht the comodore only supports basic ?

The comodore consumes a lot more power than any of the PICAXE range and it gets a lot hotter too so I guess the answer is no

The C-64 is a computer and the PICAXE is a chip!

How long would it take to make a PICAXE flash an LED and read a tempertaure sensor compared to a C-64?
How long would it take to write a text editor and display the results on a PICAXE?

Power is not the issue, it's suitability to task you should be asking.
What's the task?

 

[hippy]

I'm not sure how you'd measure "powerful", let alone decide which is most powerful.

One very big difference is what happens when you turn them on. As far as I recall, the C64 and ZX81 will wait for you to type something on the keyboard, you cannot go any further until you type in a program, load one from cassette or, if you're lucky, from a floppy disk, whereas the PICAXE will immediately run the program last downloaded.

 

[manuka]

Rigidigital: Ah was that beer/or bear with me? I can't follow your line of thought-PICAXE chips & 30 year old home computers as thirst quenchers,then a state of the art XBee chaser, followed by "a dozen pubs" on the wine list. Talk about mixing drinks -what's the real quest here?

 

[Dippy]

I had 6 pints of Carlsberg and a curry last night and I'm really struggling to understand this.

Old computers ... PICAXEs... Uncles... pubs... Xbees... and grammatical IEDs.... eh?

An oasis:-
"Im happy to any questions from you."
- what's it all for?
- Why compare antique home computers with a microcontroller?
- What is a "concert camera"? (In simple readable terms please).

Are you trying to connect a modern PC to remote video cameras via XBees and Antique-PCs or PICAXE?
Is this some kind of video surveillance?
Did you want near real time?
Will the Micro be controlling the data directly?
If so, good luck.

Try and provide a clear description of what you are doing.
A drawing or sketch would help.
Maybe get your Uncle to check over your project description before posting.

Sounds like Stan has been on the pop too

 

[manuka]

Dippy: No such luck with the firewater- it's Milo time here I'm afraid...

 

[rigidigital]

For The Sakeofantqity"

i WOULD LIKE TO COMUNICATE WITH /BETEWWN PICAXE AND sINLAIR, COMMODORE 64 OR trs-80. pROBABLLY use XBee modules or standartd UHF.

Can there older compuers use theserialport waiting for instructions ? Veryeasy in .NET but ive not a lot of clue how its done on an TRS-80 or other vintage computers.

Sould the wholesysrem work I billblogitforallto check out.

really sorry about typing, still have not fixed keypoard.

 

[moxhamj]

really sorry about typing, still have not fixed keypoard.

I have to ask - are you typing this on a sinclair keyboard?

Re communication, a picaxe can communicate with pretty much anything that has a serial port. The ZX81 had a serial add-on. The Commodore 64 had a serial port but it was TTL, not RS232 (and so will need inverting which is easy for the picaxe to do). The TRS80 had a 4 pin DIN serial port so you would need to build an adaptor plug.

This is all quite possible.

But - how do you manage to code any software with a keyboard that randomly changes to caps lock, leaves out spaces and spells itself as a keypoard?

 

[Dippy]

Oh[plnsegetfiITrFUjngthngfixeditsdoinhmyFUjjimgheadin.


What relevance is your Uncle and his chain of pubs?
(Unless you are offering free beer for the typographical enema you are giving us)???

So, do I understand this correctly; you are asking if all of those old computers have serial ports and whether the ports are accessible to the code writer? (in BASIC I assume?)
Is that right?

What has the 'power' query got to do with it?
They're all slow old things if programmed in BASIC, especially if programmed badly. I would imagine an X2 is far faster like-for-like, but without a direct description of what you actually want to do then it's out with our Balls and give 'em a rub.

Why don't you do a bit of Googling for yourself and see if they have serial ports/connections available and whether their BASIC supports it?

 

[hippy]

I think getting the keyboard fixed should be your first priority

Can there older compuers use theserialport waiting for instructions ?

Not sure if you mean use the port while waiting for instructions or using serial port to wait for instructions. Both should be possible, if you write the code for that. If you can find someone who remembers or still uses one they will probably be best placed to say how.

That brings in another issue though; if you get a C64, ZX81 or TRS-80 doing what you want; what happens when it breaks down, how do you replace it, save all the hard and long effort put in from having been a waste ? All, and similar, are becoming increasingly rare and attracting premium prices.

If you haven't actually got any of these it may be worth spending the money on something else, if you have, it may be worth selling them and using that money. If in good condition, perhaps put them in the loft as an investment while prices increase.

As attractive and ethical as it is to use old home computers, other than for the case of proving a point that it can, the practicalities are really against that.

 

[rigidigital]

really sorry about typing, still have not fixed keypoard.

I have to ask - are you typing this on a sinclair keyboard?

Re communication, a picaxe can communicate with pretty much anything that has a serial port. The ZX81 had a serial add-on. The Commodore 64 had a serial port but it was TTL, not RS232 (and so will need inverting which is easy for the picaxe to do). The TRS80 had a 4 pin DIN serial port so you would need to build an adaptor plug.

This is all quite possible.

But - how do you manage to code any software with a keyboard that randomly changes to caps lock, leaves out spaces and spells itself as a keypoard?

iDON'RUNDERSTAND THAT!

How did comodore write progras in the firstplace wirth therebugs ?

 

[rigidigital]

gdd idea, Ill trtdoingjustthat,yhanks

Oh[plnsegetfiITrFUjngthngfixeditsdoinhmyFUjjimgheadin.


What relevance is your Uncle and his chain of pubs?
(Unless you are offering free beer for the typographical enema you are giving us)???

So, do I understand this correctly; you are asking if all of those old computers have serial ports and whether the ports are accessible to the code writer? (in BASIC I assume?)
Is that right?

What has the 'power' query got to do with it?
They're all slow old things if programmed in BASIC, especially if programmed badly. I would imagine an X2 is far faster like-for-like, but without a direct description of what you actually want to do then it's out with our Balls and give 'em a rub.

Why don't you do a bit of Googling for yourself and see if they have serial ports/connections available and whether their BASIC supports it?

I will try that as you have suggested , thankyou

 

[moxhamj]

One big problem with all those old computers is storing a program. Reading data on and off a cassette is most tedious. And there are endless discussions on vintage computer forums about disk drives and cleaning them and even dealing with disks that are physically falling apart.

Are you trying to save money using old machines? If so, the cheapest computers around (at least in my part of the world) are PCs that are about 10 years old. My local computer store gives them away. And a 10 year old PC will run XP fine and even .NET (albeit a bit slowly). Then your code will be a lot easier.

 

[John West]

I'm not sure how you'd measure "powerful", let alone decide which is most powerful.

One very big difference is what happens when you turn them on. As far as I recall, the C64 and ZX81 will wait for you to type something on the keyboard, you cannot go any further until you type in a program, load one from cassette or, if you're lucky, from a floppy disk, whereas the PICAXE will immediately run the program last downloaded.

The C64 had (has) an auto-start mode that was enabled by plugging in a device (usually a game cartridge) to the expansion port. I used that feature with my product.

 

[John West]

Speaking of keyboards - some may have noticed I use the - symbol a lot. The comma key is broken on this PC - so if I need to use a comma I have to implement it as a C&P. That's a pain in the butt most of the time - especially when writing PICAXE code. I'm considering re mapping the comma function to a key I never use, like the backslash key. Just haven't gotten around to it. I'm terribly lazy.

I have most everything I need to build up a pretty good high-power tower PC - but this laptop is much more convenient and energy efficient in my motorhome so I haven't built up the big PC yet. Or I could buy a new keyboard for the laptop and replace this defective one. Or I could just plug in an outboard keyboard. But I haven't. I'm just terribly lazy.

 

[BeanieBots]

The Sinclair had the ability to have a shadow ROM so you had the ability to call apon a 64k bank of shadow code to suplement the main BASIC interpreter. That makes just about anything possible if you know how to program in Z80 assembler.

 

[manuka]

RD: Even reading your initial posts makes for thirsty work,and unless you grab a normal keyboard (and use the space bar) that uncle of yours will need to reserve a few crates of premium amber fluid to aid our further concentration. Dippy will no doubt handle distribution.

 

[rigidigital]

Why Iwant to use a commodore or Sinclair ZX1 or TRS-80

Mainlybecause, the commodore 64 was the first computer I ever used ,it wasnt mine burt a friends.I also read Mahazines about the Sinclair computer and TRS-80.

I would lie a Sinclir but im not sure the australian 240Volt supply would work withit.

I would like to use one of these machunes to domosrt of mt picaxe project.

One problem off the topof myheadid serialportprogrsmming , it willsurley be harder than .NET

Commodore only supports Basic and machine, I have hear that either the sinclair or the TRS-80 supports fortran.

Can I send and recieve data through the serialport on anyof thses machines.

Some of them run at about 4mhz as dosome picaxe chips, but are picaxe chips able to get more done at the same speed?

Anyone have an answer please ?

Mike.

 

[westaust55]

RD: Even reading your initial posts makes for thirsty work,and unless you grab a normal keyboard (and use the space bar) that uncle of yours will need to reserve a few crates of premium amber fluid to aid our further concentration. Dippy will no doubt handle distribution.

Looking at the latest post from RD it is not the keyboard but likely more a case of
1. not pressing the space bar properly at all times
2. frequently pressing the key adjacent to the one desired.
Mahazines - h is next to g , burt - r superfluous but next to t, machunes - u is next to i, serialportprogrsmming - s is next to a

@RD, Can I suggest you try typing in say word and do a spell check before you cut and paste into the forum post.


Hey am not perfect either but I do see and correct many of my such
fiendishly flailing finger foibles.

 

[rigidigital]

Is this better

Mainlybecause, the commodore 64 was the first computer I ever used ,it wasnt mine burt a friends.I also read Mahazines about the Sinclair computer and TRS-80.

I would lie a Sinclir but im not sure the australian 240Volt supply would work withit.

I would like to use one of these machines todo most of my Picaxe project.

One problem off the top of my head is serial port programming , it will surely be harder than .NET

Commodore only supports Basic and machine, I have hear that either the sinclair or the TRS-80 supports Fortran.

Can I send and recieve data through the serialport on any of these machines.

Some of them run at about 4mhz as do some Picaxe chips, but are Picaxe chips able to get more done at the same speed?

Anyone have an answer please ?

Mike.

 

[rigidigital]

One more question please, what is the Max ram of biggest picaxe ?
Amoung other uses the ram limitits the lies of code yes ?

Can adding a 32k eeprom increase the number of lines f code or is it to only holds and retreive data ?

Is there a ram chip thatcan be used to ad ramto a picaxe chip.

Is there a dedicated vivdeo chip that can be added ?

I want to build myown extremly retro computer, maybe not justyetbut in 5he future. Ive been reading on how to build a verybasic opersting system,

ahemm.... t connect a keyboard to a microcontroller do u ave to plice open the keyboard lead or is the a king of adapter. Thanks agin fir reading my ramblings.

PS. I am waiting on delivery of a new laptop, the current one has only 2 usb ports so i am using a USB adapter which turns one USB into 4 usb's , but itwont work with everything as at times i get a message "Port already in USE" likly as i have my mic and mouse connected as well.

Also I have another USB device that alows me to run 5 usb devices from the one pc usb port.Thisitem also has a pwer cord connectrdto it.I aguessing that if the power fro thelaptp usb was not enough to run a particular device then the mains power would take over ??

 

[westaust55]

One more question please, what is the max ram of biggest PICAXE ?
Among other uses the ram limits the lies of code yes ?

See Manual 2 page 11 for the number of RAM locations available for each "model" of PICAXE chip.

Can adding a 32k EEPROM increase the number of lines f code or is it to only holds and retrieve data ?

Is there a ram chip that can be used to add ram to a PICAXE chip.

Any added EEPROM or RAM chip just increases the available space to store data using predominantly i2c or SPI commands

There are/were some ram chips (TechSupplies did sell on) but extremely expensive. The next level down is F-RAM (by Ramtron) which are available but again much more expensive (like 10 time) per byte than EEPROM chips.
F-RAM has no limitations in terms of writing new data whereas EEPROM does have limitations on number of time to write and a short time delay required after each consecutive write.

Is there a dedicated video chip that can be added ?

none that I am aware of.

I want to build my own extremely retro computer, maybe not just yet but in the future. Ive been reading on how to build a very basic operating system,

why not do a Google search on this topic.

For example have a look at:

http://www.techlib.com/Karen/micro.htm​

down the bottom for example is:

A PIC Emulation of a NIBL Tiny Basic Computer​

Using a PIC16F877 to emulate a SC/MP microprocessor based system
Now SC/MP is getting really retro - one of the first microprocessors out






Thanks again fir reading my ramblings.

PS. I am waiting on delivery of a new laptop, the current one has only 2 usb ports so i am using a USB adapter which turns one USB into 4 usb's , but it wont work with everything as at times i get a message "Port already in USE" likly as i have my mic and mouse connected as well.

Also I have another USB device that alows me to run 5 usb devices from the one pc usb port.This item also has a power cord connected to it. I am guessing that if the power fro the laptop usb was not enough to run a particular device then the mains power would take over ??[/QUOTE]

ahemm.... to connect a keyboard to a micro controller do u have to splice open the keyboard lead or is the a kind of adapter.

The X1 and X2 PICAXE parts have a couple of pins that enable you to directly connect a standard PS2 PC keyboard. Just get yourself a PS2 connector.

and

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SORT OUT YOUR KEYBOARD or TYPING SKILLS.
It took me as long to edit the quotes as to type the responses!

 

[manuka]

RD: This forum is essentially concerned with promoting state of the art high level user friendly PICAXE microcontrollers. For your extreme retro computer ideas it's really probably best that you torment folks elsewhere...

 

[MPep]

I love that cartoon Manuka

 

[manuka]

MPep: It's one of my favourites too- and about to take special significance at 10:10:10 on the 10/10/10 this Sunday.

Extra: What DID happen to that AIS setup of yours- toppled by the 7.1 earthquake maybe?

 

[MartinM57]

Well I'm confused:
- you want to use a retro computer for something (unclear what)?
- you want to build a retro computer using a PICAXE?

The latter has already been done, and very well too - http://chrisfenton.com/diy-laptop-v2/

@rd - clarity of thought, clear presentation of questions. an element of trying to find things out for yourself and reasonable typing all go down well here. The quality of replies are directly related to the quality of those four things.

This thread is drifting all over the place - good luck with whatever it is you are aspiring to do.

Out.

 

[Dippy]

Sounds cruel, but yes absolutely.
It is SO difficult to provide answers when the goalposts keep moving.

It may just be easier to sit in one of your Uncle's pubs and fit a new keyboard

It just goes to show how nice and patient people here are doesn't it.
In brutal honesty much of the questioning has been unreadable gibberish, yet people probably spent hours decoding and trying to answer and ask for clarification.

I genuinely wish you well with the project .. whatever it is.

 

[westaust55]

MPep: It's one of my favourites too- and about to take special significance at 10:10:10 on the 10/10/10 this Sunday.

Alternatively in RD's case . . .

 

[John West]

Alternatively in RD's case . . .

Reminds me of a time while sitting in my cubicle at work I heard a repeated metallic jingling that sounded a bit like car keys, coming from the next cubicle, over and over again.

It took me a moment to put it together, but I finally raised my voice to the programmer in the next cubicle and said "They mean a key on your keyboard, Kim!"

Cubicle humor, always a bit desperate.

 

[MPep]

Fantastic cartoon there WA. Love it.

 

[rigidigital]

Yes Sir,SorrySir, Wont happen again Sir. My girlfriend is having a baby Sir, I request leave Sir.Sorry Sir
Sorry about the typing Sir, Keyboard is faulty,wil have new Laptop on Wednesday Sir.

 

[boriz]

How’s this for new-retro: http://www.commodoreusa.net/PC64.html

I think it’s beautiful

 

[MPep]

How’s this for new-retro: http://www.commodoreusa.net/PC64.html

I think it’s beautiful

I LIKE IT

 

[rigidigital]

wellthanks for the help evethe not so helpfull . ive dumped some ideas. BTW ITS not just a faulty spacebar but iad a stroke and have little control of my fingers butin truth i could follow the word/spellchecker idea. i guess ihave been prety thoughtless,i justgot annoyed reading my own posts .Thanks for putting upwith it.