substandard knock-off components

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BrendanP

Senior Member
I was reading about Poly Switches on Tycos site when I came across this quote.

".....The circulation of substandard knock-off components, sold with counterfeit packaging and labeling is a growing concern for electronics OEMs, and Tyco Electronics recommends that manufacturers exercise care and vigilance in the procurement process...."

Id be intrested in hearing if anyone has been burnt in this way. I was considering sourcing ancilliary parts for my picaxe bassed devices through, for example HoBid. The idea that there are shonky knock offs in parts floating around out there makes me think I'm better off sticking with Mouser,RS, Farnell etc. whatever the extra cost.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Only ever use the manufacturer's recommended washing powder in your washing machine and only ever use car manufacturers approved components ...

How much of that is legitimate and necessary and how much to simply lock others out of a market is always debatable.

There's genuine concern over knock-off fakes, memory sticks claiming 4GB with just 1GB inside etc and every market is a potential target. I recall some tales of woe that motherboard manufacturers got bitten hard with electrolytic caps which proved to be sub-standard fakes.

If you're concerned about fakes, knock-offs and inferior parts, only buy from those who will guarantee the quality and have tested those components. Just because they are a big name distributor doesn't necessarily mean they do or will.

If components aren't tested, just re-distributed, you're likely to get get dodgy parts no matter who you buy from. The response if that happens could differ - You may get what you pay for, but sometimes smaller dealers may be more helpful. Legislation will often cover sub-standard parts no matter who you buy from.

Bottom line : Talk to the potential dealer, don't simply choose one with a better reputation / bigger business.
 
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BrendanP

Senior Member
Hippy, I just presumed someone like Mouser would know the supply chain right back to the plant were the part was made. It would be a shattering experience to have a device out on the market fail enmass (spelling?) because of a the dodgy 10cent cap. and your business name/rep anihilated.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
In theory any decent company ( ISO-9000 etc accredited ) should be able to do track-back, but the problem with fakes is that someone somewhere along the chain lies, or swaps the contents of a legit product with their fakes ( the legit gets sold through a different channel ).

Unless product is fully tested on receipt its genuine validity cannot be easily proven. If it's just short on working lifetime it'll probably pass testing anyway. By the time a problem is noticed the scam artists will be well gone.

One of the things with ISO 9000 is that it allows companies to look at their suppliers quality standards to judge how trustworthy they are, but ultimately it is all a risk. All you can do is minimise it. By how much depends on how deep ones pockets are.
 
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Dippy

Moderator
I agree with hippy totally.

You can request various documentation (e.g. RoHS) and suppliers (proper ones) are obliged to supply. Indeed places like Farnell supply it on-line. But as hippy says somewhere along the line something might go awry whether by accident or design.

But I would imagine that the big suppliers are as careful as possible. They don't want a law-suit on their hands. But some tuppeny-ha'penny, fly-by-night supplier selling via you-know-where wouldn't give a toss. And because it's so cheap and took so long to arrive the chances of you (or anyone) complaining is low.

Suppliers, even the big ones, rely on importers. I know the UK importers for one brand of GLCD that supply to Farnell. Farnell will have to trust them and they, in turn, will have to trust the manufacturers. The likes of Farnell, of course, can afford to send a couple of suits to Beijing...

But, as hippy says, you can minimise your risks and this is exactly why I never advocate buying the cheapest old bangers from you-know-where. A good supplier will be on your side if it goes pants.

I remember a few years ago a UK importer of mobile phone chargers being taken to court by Trading Standards. The chargers were made you-know-where (beginning with the same letter as the word 'Cheap'). They had all sorts of UL and CE printed on 'em. Some caught fire and an investigation showed the 'approvals' were bull. But were the importers really to know? They could have been given all sorts of promises. So I dunno. Buy cheap and take the maximum risk - but you can strike lucky. Sadly it won't stop people buying the cheapest anonymous tat available. Human nature.

One final thing: I would have thought it would also depend on the product as to the probability of forgery etc. Some things just simply wouldn't worth it, but cheap blue 'enlargement' pills are...
 
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hax

New Member
Also the push on copper prices and the ultra competitive nature of markets has seen some standard IEC computer cables stretched to their design limits in how thin the copper wires are....

A batch of IEC cables came onto Australian markets in 2002 that were much too thin for their rated current of 10A. They would heat up with just a few amps of load and if that is not alarming enough, some didn't even have the earth wire connected!!!

Read this:

http://www.usenet.com.au/index.php?author=kreed&id=547&group=15
 
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moxhamj

New Member
That fake cap has got me thinking that it is almost is worth testing every component that goes into a circuit. Or at least, test one from each batch. An LCR meter will pick the fake caps and the out of spec resistors though I'm not sure how to pick fake voltage ratings on caps. Chips probably are less likely to be fake though I do recall getting some cheapie 5V regs 20 years ago that had no thermal cutout circuitry. Picaxes would never be fake! But polyswitches - a little more tricky to test with simple bench equipment.
 
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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
fake sd cards is the beginning of a classic case of substandard and non spec manufacturing

most of the ones i bought here in sydney from places like dick smith bigw even photography shops have actaully turned out to be fake sd cards

most of the fake cards won't go into the 4 bit sd mode but instead only go into the 1 bit spi mmc mode
then if it initialises on some cards you have to give it upto another 80 pulses before every command

where as the sd card i ordered directly from sandisk follows what it says on the datahseet to the letter
 
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Dippy

Moderator
Can we define 'Fake' here? Fraudulent or just crap?

These 'fake' SD cards; are they branded as a big-brand name and turn out to be sub-standard? Have they spelt Sandik wrong, which is sometimes a clue?

Or are they cheap anonymous carp you got from Epay?

So, are we talking fraud, or the proliferation of bad stuff?
Maybe even retrieved rejected stuff stolen from a proper manufacturer's skip.

I certainly wouldn't start up a factory in China to intentionally make part-working SD cards . (Though I have written FAT32 SPI software to use 'em...)

I'm sorry but if people buy 'cheap' stuff from Car-Boot sales and find it's fake then tough titty.
 
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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
for definition of fake sd card google it,

these are cards i got from Big w ,Dick Smith ,Jaycar places you'd expect to get genuine cards

they are infact actaully mmc cards but packaged in sd card casings with the extra pins they look like sd cards with the sd logo and all

they will still work in most sd card devices because they have to support mmc cards anyway, now since there aren't many people like us playing around with these cards discovering the shocking truth no ones the wiser apart from users who run benchmarking programs,
 
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BrendanP

Senior Member
On a slightly different track after seeing horror stories like the circuit breaker above, I wouldn't eat food products made in China no matter what.
 
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Dippy

Moderator
Thanks dpg, you saved me Googling - thank goodness as I haven't got all day.

So (one), are these 'SDs' (MMCswith extra pins) BRANDED as big name brands?
Or are they just cheap anonymous blobs?
Did you cut them to check connections are they just duff?
Even I can print an SD label.

So (two), apart from THANKs for the warning, have you got onto these suppliers and told them? If they are fake, then someone is guilty of fraud/deception. That's illegal.
Do they have a 'Readers Feedback' section on their sites to let other unwitting people know about it?

Stuff like this needs publicity. You sometimes have to humiliate people into taking action.

PS. Brendan, how do you know they are made in China. Oh, and there is alot of nice Chinese food around by the way.

PPS. A few years ago I was being a cheapskate and bought a Chinese made mains plug. I wired it up and popped it in the socket. I pulled it out and just the back came away, leaving exposed mains terminals. I took it back to the shop and they accused me of screwing it up too hard. Never happens with MK products. I'm now not a cheapskate.
 
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Tom2000

Senior Member
MartinM57 said:
My (least) favourite - hope you don't have too many of these at home :mad:
Click to expand...
Good grief, Martin, that goes well beyond fraud. Selling something like that is a criminal offense. Hope it gets stopped before the seller becomes an accessory to second degree murder.

Many, many thanks for the warning!

Tom
 
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slurp

Senior Member
The key to all this is reputation... I'd be certain that there are some good products coming out but most of these will not be pressed to the extreme of costs for profit.

I consider many products from China that are good but I wouldn't touch another B&Q branded electrical product from anywhere let a lone China. Examination of a burnt out lighting product showed that the fuse holder wasn't rated to the fuse fitted. ... but I'm sure it was a few pence saved but it could have been a fire in our kids bedroom!

regards,
Colin
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Vicious Scheming ( hence 'evil grin' )

Dr_Acula said:
Picaxes would never be fake!
Click to expand...
Au contraire, they would be easy to create, hard to spot and perhaps impossible to prove.

Imagine I take a 16F-something, program it up with a fake PICAXE bootloader so you can download into it but that's all, how are you going to convince anyone that because it doesn't do anything else it's a fake ? What if it simply stops downloading and always gives a verification error at a random byte ?

All I have to do is invest a little time and effort faking a bootloader, buy bulk PICmicros at very low cost, sell via an online forum and wait for the amusingly frustrated forum posts while counting the dosh.

In reality it wouldn't work because PICAXE's are not a common commodity like circuit breakers or memory sticks and only sold through limited distribution channels.
 
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Dippy

Moderator
Tell you what hippy, just sell blank PICs as PICAXEs. Just kidding ladies and gentlemen. Don't do this at home kids!!

I've got a box of Rolexes here .. interested?
Waterproof to 20,000 feet. It says so on the face. And some suckers believe it.

Slurp you can safely buy MK products from B&Q. I would suggest looking in Screwfix first. And sometimes CPC have offers. Within reason you get what you pay for.

Generally, try not to tar everyone with the same brush. Get it in proportion.
But if people buy anonymous stuff for tuppence three-farthings from E-you-know-where, when normally the cost is a fiver, then be it your own head. Caveat Emptor.
 
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slurp

Senior Member
Dippy said:
Slurp you can safely buy MK products from B&Q. I would suggest looking in Screwfix first. And sometimes CPC have offers. Within reason you get what you pay for.
Click to expand...
Agreed, it's the B&Q branded items I have a problem with... ;)

... and it's great now that screwfix have come to town. (handier than mail order)

regards,
colin
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Dippy said:
I certainly wouldn't start up a factory in China to intentionally make part-working SD cards.
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Dippy,

Carfeful, your naivity is showing!

We are not talking about making countrfits in small one man shops, but full scale factories.

They don't build factories to make the imitation parts. There is simply an independent factory with excess production time. Someone comes in and is willing to place and pay for an order that keeps the machines running. Of course that ordr will be processed.

The factory merely produced a product the specifications it was given for the cost agreed upon. The factory has no further responsibilty for marketing, exporting or sales.

If you doubt this happens, remember the little blue pills you mentioned.

Or from personal knowledge, this happens all the time, even in the US. At one time I was qualtiy manager for an ice cream plant (yes, it was a sweet job). We mostly made our nationally branded ice cream, but we also made hunderds of other brands to separate specifications. Once they left our warehouse, we were done with it. There is one caveat, in the US labelling dairy products is tightly controlled. To be called "ice cream" a certain minimum % butter fat is required, there are also other requirements.

Myc
 
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BrendanP

Senior Member
"......how do you know they are made in China....." Well, I'll bet they werent 'made in Germany'. Point taken though.
 
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Rickharris

Senior Member
Haxby said:
This is a great little picture of a fake capacitor that was circling around the net a while back.

http://pixdaus.com/single.php?id=10465

It would hardly seem worth it to save a cent or two....
Click to expand...
I am not entirely sure that photo is a fake product - I have seen it before but the site is a photographic site and it may well be just a photographic attempt at irony.

The case doesn't look as if it was ever crimped up and it would cost almost as much to make the fake as a real fake at the correct value.
 
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Dippy

Moderator
I see your point Mr Whippy, I mean Mycroft. I was only half-joking. Excuse me... there that's better, I've tucked my naivety away.

So, if I understand you correctly, (forgive me if not), you're saying there's a factory somewhere producing the pukka stuff, then along comes Mr X and says "keep 'em running lads and here's X quid. Oh, and by the way, can you forget to wire up a couple of pads even though the machine automatically does 'em?"

Well, if that happens then the 'duffers' would have the extra cost of un-setting a machine. Sorry, I truly honestly find that difficult to contemplate.

More likely, I'd have thought, was Mr X going along and saying "Please can I have all your rejects and I can sell them to DPG" :)

It's a bit different from adding more or less vanilla essence. Yum, yum.


Oh those little blue pills, they worry me. In fact the thought of actually swallowing one keeps me up all night.

They aren't even made in the same factory as the pukka ones. They're made in large sheds in India and China erected especially for the job. The owners should be prosecuted and sent to a large penal colony.
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Dippy,

Have you been to those large sheds in China. Those are the factories! There is explosive and unmonitored growth in China.

The problem lies in the greed of human nature and the lack of controls and monitoring by the governement.

Doo you really think that those "replica" watches, shoes, handbags ad little blue pills are rejects?

Recently, in the US, we had 2 major recalls.

In the first, "replica" toothpaste was being sold. the problem was that to cut costs on the "replica", antifreeze was used a a sweetener.

In the second, a Chinese grain exporter enhanced the protein content, or rather the apparent protein content, with melamine resin. Fortunately, this grain was not for human consumption but was used in cat and dog food. Thousands of cats and dogs in the US became sick and died. There is a major lawsuit going on now.

It boils down to "let the buyer beware" and "if it seems to good to be true, then it isn't!

Myc
 
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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
"So (one), are these 'SDs' (MMCswith extra pins) BRANDED as big name brands? yes
Or are they just cheap anonymous blobs?
Did you cut them to check connections are they just duff? yes on two of them, they were a 512mb and a 1 gig labelled sandisk the pins we'ren't actaully connected on the 512mb card and on the 1 gig card they were grounded
Even I can print an SD label." so can whoever did these cards

the general attitude with suppliers down here eg dick smith jaycar bigw, is "can't be fake it's got a sandiskgenuine sticker thingy on it" you thn direct them towards this site

http://www.overclockers.com.au/wiki/Fake_Memory_Cards

then it's "oh dear we'd better call the head office yak yak yak then never hear about it again" while in the mean time they either offer to give you your money back or another sd card
really they don't care the fake cards still work in most sd card slots just not as well as the genuine cards,

down here in Australia the "dirt cheap cordless drill" thing is still raging here

when i walked into bigw 2 weeks ago they had a kettle for $7 a microwave for $49 i dare say with the sd cards it's a case of the the buyer just taking the cheapest supplier for the sake of making a few more dollars
 
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Dippy

Moderator
DPG: That is terrible.

Well, all I can say is that if some well-known distributor ripped me off like you've been seen off, and I had 100% evidence, and they fobbed me off, then they'd be in court next week.

You'd be doing a lot of people a favour - and yourself. But it takes nerve and tenacity. Do you have the equivalent of UK Legal Aid. You must surely have the equivalent of Trading Standards?

Yup, drag 'em through the courts and newspapers - if you have the proof then do 'em. Don't let them walk all over you like some sucker.
 
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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
Dippy said:
DPG: That is terrible.

Well, all I can say is that if some well-known distributor ripped me off like you've been seen off, and I had 100% evidence, and they fobbed me off, then they'd be in court next week.

You'd be doing a lot of people a favour - and yourself. But it takes nerve and tenacity. Do you have the equivalent of UK Legal Aid. You must surely have the equivalent of Trading Standards?

Yup, drag 'em through the courts and newspapers - if you have the proof then do 'em. Don't let them walk all over you like some sucker.
Click to expand...
been a little ahead of you there Dippy

i actaully rang (Legal Aid) them about it a while ago and basically there is no way they will fund a court case against sandisk bigw dicksmith or jaycar over a supposedly genuine sandisk sd card i purchased for $17 that isn't so genuine

now our deptarment of fair trading..... i would be charitable to say they we're worth the paper their letter head was printed on needless to say they weren't much help at all infact the attitude i got out of them was deplorable,

down here in Australia, everything is corrupt ( and i mean hook line and rapture )
eg, 2 years ago my brother stayed overnight at my place on the couch during the night our less than helpfull housemate/was good friend decided she would take a gander at my brother credit card while he was asleep 3 months later after we
had kicked her out in one day she ordered a desktop from dell and had it delivered to her house did some other naughtly online shopping and inside a month racked up a bill of $2500,

when we went to the police (yes we were shocked too) they actaully told us outright it's not worth us spending $5000 to $6000 in police wages on a little $2500 credit card fraud!, my father was beside himself my brother... well he wasn't happy we so we just went home he called the bank and sorted it out through them, and copped what he lost on the chin,

it's like this everywhere now on one apart from me as far as i know does anything on principle anymore,

as for newpapers i did actaully get some attention from somone at 60minutes but there is bigger and better news to be reporting on, again principle..
 
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Dippy

Moderator
That's REAL bad. Down go prices and down go , honesty, standards and morals.

Can any Aussies help DPG here?
Personally, I wouldn't let the matter rest but then I'm a bit of a Victor Meldrew (probably means nothing to non-Brits).
If I had a 100% case I'd be chewing away like a ferret down the trousers.

We have TV progs called "Watchdog" and Radio Progs too (e.g. "You & Yours") which love getting teeth into consumer issues like this. Anything like that down your way? Obv they could have a queue of issues but sometimes the threat of publicity can get things going - it's worked for me in the past.
 
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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
to say it's the tip of the iceburg would be understating it, i guess it's what happens in a throw away society, how many tv repair men do you see these days?

i think even the manufacturers are cashing in on the whole throw away society thing by using and designing circuits to last a limited amount of time,
 
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Dippy

Moderator
Well, on the 'You and Yours' radio programme today, there are warnings of fake Nokia N95(?) mobile phones.
The giveway? On initlal switch-on some Chinese characters appear briefly on the display...
The software writer will get the sack now!

Less than half normal price, so 'fake' should be obvious - but skinflints will still buy them.
 
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papaof2

Senior Member
There have always been "on the edge of failure" designs. In the US in the 1950's there were the very cheap TVs distributed by "Mad Man" Muntz (cheap in comparison to the name brands because the Muntz 21" was the price of the RCA 17"). Some were rumored to have been sold at/below cost to improve the sales numbers. All of the TVs were built with the horizontal sweep tube (and other things) running at/beyond maximum ratings and needing replacement every few months - my mother was on a first name basis with the TV repairman.

Those were also the days when "Made in Japan" signified cheap/shoddy construction - a bit of a change when compared to today (although my new Toyota truck isn't as well engineered (from a driver's standpoint) or assembled (wind noise) as the 18 year old Nissan it replaced, so even that reputation is being eroded).

John
 
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