Raspberry Pi

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vttom

Senior Member
I've been hearing about this Raspberry Pi project for a little while now, and it looks like they're very close to releasing a product. I wonder how something like this would be useful for PICAXErs? They seem to be targetting the educational market, so it seems a nice fit with Rev-Ed's mission.

One thing that comes to mind would be to use it as an HTTP client (or server for that matter) for viewing/interacting with one or more attached PICAXEs via a web-browser.

Any other ideas?
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
It does seem to be the potentially ubiquitous, cheap, compact, low-power(ish) PC that bridging projects have been calling out for, where Linux routers and so forth would have previously been re-purposed for.

It should be able to have an AXE027 plugged into it so the most obvious uses are as serially connected TV or HDMI displays for the PICAXE, SD card / USB datalogging and ethernet bridging. It can also be turned around to be the central computer using PICAXE as slave devices.

Apart from the hype and excitement about it, its low price and compact form factor, it's really 'just another PC', so it doesn't really offer anything more than can already be done with any PC.
 
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Goeytex

Senior Member
For $35, some cables and a wall wart, it looks like a very cost effective little platform for all kinds of cool things.
Maybe I could use this to develop some apps with Python ? Just have to learn Linux and Python first !
 
J

Jamster

Senior Member
Goeytex said:
For $35, some cables and a wall wart, it looks like a very cost effective little platform for all kinds of cool things.
Maybe I could use this to develop some apps with Python ? Just have to learn Linux and Python first !
Click to expand...

As much as I like BASIC, Python is a brilliant language and is really easy to learn. There are also hundreds of modules that can be used to build games etc, the only downfall is the ridiculously confusing manual which is difficult to find any info regardless of the search function!
 
M

Marcwolf

Senior Member
Jamster said:
As much as I like BASIC, Python is a brilliant language and is really easy to learn. There are also hundreds of modules that can be used to build games etc, the only downfall is the ridiculously confusing manual which is difficult to find any info regardless of the search function!
Click to expand...
ah.. Welcome to the world of Open Source documentation
 
M

MFB

Senior Member
One odd feature for a low cost product that's aimed at the education market, is that it outputs HDI. I would not think most schools can currently supply an HDI display for each user. Maybe the choice of graphics display has something to do with the gaming background of this project.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
MFB said:
One odd feature for a low cost product that's aimed at the education market, is that it outputs HDI. I would not think most schools can currently supply an HDI display for each user. Maybe the choice of graphics display has something to do with the gaming background of this project.
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The processor seems to be one used in TV set top boxes which they've managed to wrangle a cheap purchase price on due to their educational goals. Hence CVBS and HDMI but no VGA. The CVBS "yellow phono" should work with any TV with composite video input, and can be connected via a modulator and attach to an RF input. Just like home computers of the good old days.

The game demos are more to demonstrate it works and can run video at higher speeds rather than anything else.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
There are a couple of other PICAXE users over there as well and I guessed it would be a platform which PICAXE users will be considering interfacing to as well as there being Pi users wanting to interface it to hardware and the PICAXE could be well suited to that.

Some people want to add LCD text displays to their Pi and with an AXE027 and AXE133Y that's all they need and that gets them OLED; might as well let them know there are those easy and cheap options available.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
I tend wary whenever unspecified educational end uses are mentioned! For starters, & although such "extras" may be idle nearby, let's not forget such $$ computers also first need accessories. Factor in a mouse, keyboard, screen,case,speakers, mike,camera,WiFi adapter,cables & PSU & you've probably spent another $$($). Far more telling educationally is that you also now have a bulky assembly with a rat's nest of wires running everywhere. Such layouts demand cussed setup/put-away time & dedicated rooms -both are often in very short educational supply! Outside of specialised use in electronics labs (& perhaps thus more suited to tertiary level),I can assure you that this is just what most educational institutions do NOT want to wrestle with.

In contrast all in one 10" netbooks (often dual core & c/w 250GB range HDs) now abound at all up prices not much greater. I've astoundingly noted Win7 netbooks on sale locally at just ~US$230 (& offering far greater appeal than Negroponte's infamous "$100" OLPC-XO that came in eventually at much this price.)

Here in NZ it's got to the stage where netbooks (typically HP minis) are now considered a normal classroom essential,even at pre-teen level. Typically the students own them & servicing, insurance & breakage are their responsibility.Dedicated desktop style computer rooms may then no longer be needed- this alone can be of ENORMOUS appeal in schools short of classroom space. (Shades of early 1970s institutions offering dedicated calculator rooms !)

Students naturally get to take their portable home for all manner of other applications too - in an age of rapid technical change it's great to be able to solidly work a resource like this. When compared with bulky,costly & often dated texts,the educational benefits of a fully portable PC can be very attractive indeed.

Phew-my ponderings (akin to "when I hear the word culture I reach for my pistol") may be a tad off topic, but arise from too many past meetings with marketing types who are out of touch with educational realities. Many should perhaps spend a few days in a typical 2011 institution to refresh their recall ! Don't get me wrong however-I'm very positive about such nifty offerings as the Raspberry Pi & Maximite etc etc being used in specific technical fields. Stan. (Career educator)


EXTRA:And then of course there's the small matter of Android & ARD**** offerings ...
 
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MFB

Senior Member
I'm not sure I would trust students to connect netbooks to there hardware breadboards, even via some form of USB interface. These little PCs can be expensive to fix but the Maximite (sorry to mention it again!) would be almost expendable and can be programmed in Basic.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
-trust students to connect netbooks to their hardware breadboards, even via some form of USB interface.
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USB is more rugged than most folks realise - I've had more concerns over the years arising from AA cells being inserted incorrectly...

A nifty stamp sized "mini" version of the PIC32MX795F512H based Maximite has just been released. It's intended for embedded applications -check the latest (Nov. 2011) "Silicon Chip" for details.
 

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srnet

Senior Member
MFB said:
These little PCs can be expensive to fix but the Maximite (sorry to mention it again!) would be almost expendable and can be programmed in Basic.
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Netbooks are so cheap now, I doubt anyone would bother to get them fixed, probably cost more than a new one.

Whilst interesting, I can't really see where the Pi or Maximite fit in the schools context. Powerful standalone engines they might be and cheap, but the vast majority of electronics stuff in schools is done with much cheaper PICAXEs, so cheap that every child can have one. I am not the only parent in the UK that has a PICAXE led dice to marvel at. You could do the same with a Pi or Maximite of course, but the kids are not going to get to keep what they have built and show it off to their parents.
 
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MPep

Senior Member
I must admit that the educational value of Raspberry Pi is lost on me. Would appear to require a lot of external 'stuff' to get working, and then isn't cased at all. I can see many (potentially) wires being shorted here to all sorts of disastrous results.

Certainly as a developer wanting to experiment in making a mini set top box, home server etc, by all means what a fantastic way to do it. Cost effective, size etc. All good.
Same goes for the Carambola board (hadn't heard about that one, Thanks Steliosm), another small board that appears very capable.

Maximite is more like it for educational purposes. A fairly complete system, with more features being added as we speak (as it were).

My $0.02.
MPep.
 
M

MFB

Senior Member
I don't think there are many here who would disagree that the PICAXE is an excellent microcontroller for education (and much more) but my understanding is that the Pi was developed to perform an updated 'BBC Microcomputer' like role at a lower price. As the Maximite is able to accept a PS2 keyboard and output to a legacy display via RGB or composite video, I would have thought that it should also be able to fit this role. Especially as it has removable mass storage (SD card) and a Basic interpreter that supports FPM and graphics. Unlike a netbook it is able to measure analog signals and control digital I/O lines directly, without going through a complex operating system or external interface.

However, what will really decide the success of such products will probable be the level of supporting materials and that's why Parallax did so well with the Stamp in the educational market.
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
It's OT, but have you seen the hype over this pi ?.

Just do a search on e**y.

( I won't be bidding ! )
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
The bid is in GBP, not USD, and it's at £3500 now !.

While I agree that the pi is a very cost effective platform ( excluding the few in the auctions ! ), it is definitely a 'hobbyist' product, not an 'educational' product.

The continual comparison with the 'BBC B' is totally off track. The BBC hardware was cased, complete ( apart from display ), with software ready to run. The pi needs a case, PSU and KBD as well as a display.

The minimum solution has cables poking out of 3 sides of the tiny board. Even just ten of these in a classroom will end up with breakages on a regular basis.

The software is too 'open'. There will be no end of 'bricked' units as the teen coders show off their skills.

The fact that the pi is being reported ( promoted ? ) on the BBC Technology website means it is probably going to have a great future.
( See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16424990, and other BBC pages as well. )

I would like to see pi do well, but I don't see a place for it in the classroom.
 
M

MFB

Senior Member
Maximite Basic is becoming more like the PICAXE version ( see bhttp://www.maximite.com.au/support/ut for details ) but with graphics and floating point maths. Maybe this is would be more of an educational bridge than the Pi.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Buzby said:
The software is too 'open'. There will be no end of 'bricked' units as the teen coders show off their skills.
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The firmware and OS is stored on an SD Card so unless the physical hardware or card is damaged it should be possible to restore to an un-bricked condition which is the big advantage this system has. I believe Kobo eBook readers use the same mechanism, have an SD Card inside rather than a traditional soldered-in Flash chip.

The small size, lack of mounting holes and cable sockets on all sides is a consequence of getting the costs down. That IMO does limit its usefulness and practicability in some projects more than were it some other design. A purpose-designed case is promised for the future.

There is a lot of excitement around it; it is after all probably the 'cheapest PC' around, though you need more to make it usable. How useful it proves to be will almost certainly depend on how one wants to use it, whether the reality of what it is fits with what is needed or wanted or it can be made to fit those.
 
lbenson

lbenson

Senior Member
>The pi website has a section of 'jobs we need people to look at'.

Can you provide a link to this? I've searched and haven't found anything. A forum search doesn't show any threads which seem relevant to me. I'd have to agree with hippy's assessment that, baring damage to hardware, which will certainly happen, "un-bricking" a raspberry pi should be a matter of getting a working SD card. I agree that this will be a great hobbiest device, but I wouldn't rule it out for education, despite the many connections which can be gotten wrong.
 
hippy

hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
I believe it's more a case of documenting how to and creating scripts or apps to make it an easy 'one click' process to create a new SD Card image that's needed than not being able to do it. It's just a matter of copying the system to a card and that already exists or they'd not have any booting.

It's potentially possible there will one day be a power-off-and-on restore requiring minimal effort ( keep a complete clone of the boot partition in another ) but even without it's a far better state of affairs than needing to JTAG a Flash chip and especially if there is no JTAG port. While I can see negatives about the pi that's definitely a positive.
 
lbenson

lbenson

Senior Member
>The pi website has a section of 'jobs we need people to look at'.

> http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoardTasks

Not the Raspberry Pi web site, but it does address a needful task--to easily replicate the working SD boot card. This addresses the issue of corrupted media (which can be fixed on a separate PC)--not the problem with a typical "bricked" embedded device such as a reflashed router or the like, which requires access to the bricked device's hardware to be fixed.

Non-working PIs are sure to be a problem if the device is as popular as I suspect it will be, but it appears to have a fairly bullet-proof (famous last words) booting scheme, which uses non-modifiable firmware in the Graphics Processing Unit to boot from an SD card. Fix the SD card and the device will boot, provided that the hardware has not been damaged.
 
lbenson

lbenson

Senior Member
The raspberry pi wiki page points off-site to an elinux wiki, which I think is entirely unofficial. Certainly many of the wiki articles are of the most general nature, and very few seem to have been put up by raspberry pi foundation members or people who have alpha or beta raspberry PIs in hand. I suspect that raspberry pi will put up its own wiki when documentation of real hardware is available.

The beginners guide to which you refer, while probably broadly applicable, says that it is based on the Beagleboard, which is much more complicated.

The foundation spokespeople have said that the first several tranches of 10,000 (they hope there are several) are expected to go to the hobbiest community. Documentation for education purposes will not be available until some time later, and true bulk purchases for education, if there are any, may not come before 2013.

It may turn out to be too complicated and too fiddly a device for education, but it could still snare many young people like those whose attention was captured by the devices of several decades ago, and that would further the goals of the foundation.
 
Buzby

Buzby

Senior Member
lbenson said:
.... but it could still snare many young people like those whose attention was captured by the devices of several decades ago, and that would further the goals of the foundation.
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I fully agree with that, we need more programmers !.

I've never said I don't like the pi, just that I don't think it's right for the education market.
It is a very cost effective platform, and if it captures the attention of a new generation of programmers then I'm all for it.

But the pocket money price and open architecture aspects are a double edged sword.

A pound or two more and it could have a decent case, with space for batteries, and the rather cute logo printed on top.

How many of us PICAXE people forget to make a backup of a .bas file ?.
What will it be like if you needed to keep a backup, on a separate SD, of your firmware and OS as well ?.
( At least you only lose your work with the PICAXE architecture. )

The aims of the foundation are sound.

I remember showing my Mum and Dad how I'd programmed my MK14 to play 'We wish you a Merry Christmas', and a little later showing my 12 year old cousin 'Lemonade Stand' on the Apple ][.

I went on to be an industrial programmer, and my cousin is now a senior software bod at a major bank.

If pi means that in a year or two some 14 year old is going to plug a little box into his telly and show his Mum and Dad the ( modern day equivalent of ) 'Battlezone' or 'Visicalc' that he's written from scratch, then the foundation will have succeeded.

I just think that pi needs to be a bit more robust for the educational market.
 
lbenson

lbenson

Senior Member
> we need more programmers!

I hope so. It was my career, and a good one. Puzzles to solve and never the same thing to do twice. I just hope all those jobs don't go to the 2nd and 3rd worlds. I read today that in the past decade or so, IBM added around 100,000 employees in India, while shedding an equivalent number in the U.S.
 
S

srnet

Senior Member
lbenson said:
I read today that in the past decade or so, IBM added around 100,000 employees in India, while shedding an equivalent number in the U.S.
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I used to be a Engineer in a Company that did lots of Sub Contract Assembly work for IBM, display terminals, XT, AT motherboards that type of stuff for the Grenock plant. IBM had a policy back then of using 'local' manufacturers, no longer I am afraid.

I too was inspired by the humble MK14 and went on to be SE looking after BBC Micro manufacture.
 
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Goeytex

Senior Member
I was a hands on EE with some programming skills. Semi retired now and glad for it.

Today's programmers need a very diverse skill set and the ability to adapt to ever changing technology.
There is a large billboard on the highway going to my house. It says, "Know Linux? We,re Hiring".

Even with the noted drawbacks of the Pi, I think it or something like it has a place in education. To compete in the new global marketplace the youngsters will need to go beyond BASIC at some point. BASIC is a good start, but there is not much demand for BASIC programmers in today's job market. The sooner they get to Linux, Java, Python, C++, .net, et al, the better. If not the Pi then certainly something else to fill the void.

Here in the USA many educators/ politicians whine about the jobs going overseas, while most of the public schools offer nothing whatsoever in regards to electronics / programming.
 
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