Programming Device

[tiredengr]

tiredengr again,
I want to thank all who have responded to this thread. I have learned alot and you have given me lots to ponder. This will be a Winter design project for me so my next step is to download the PICAXE manuals and go sit in a quiet corner for a few weeks and program myself in thinking PICAXE.
Myc has summarized the situation very well and the PICAXE devices should work very well in this application. The bigger problem is finding a small, light, inexpensive, readable in bright sunlight, programmer to replace the, becomming rare, HP 200LX. The use of IR to communicate also has some advantages in eliminating two connectors and a cable. Connectors have been a failure item on the present timer, mostly due to high vibraion levels. I have a Palm IIIe which has IR capability.
Again I'm outof my element, but could something like a VT100 emulator running on the Palm be used to serially communicate with the PICAXE and download new timing data?
I understand there is a PILOT VT100 emulator although the type size is 3 x 5 which is not too easy to read. If something like this would work are there other VT100 emulators that are easier to read?
Could such an interface also be used to read the timer data?
The Palm III series seems to be selling for $15 to $20 on ebay. A lot better than the HP 200LX @ about $150 - $180 + $100 for a parallel port card.

Thanks again, te

 

[papaof2]

using Palms

tiredengr again,
Myc has summarized the situation very well and the PICAXE devices should work very well in this application. The bigger problem is finding a small, light, inexpensive, readable in bright sunlight, programmer to replace the, becomming rare, HP 200LX. The use of IR to communicate also has some advantages in eliminating two connectors and a cable. Connectors have been a failure item on the present timer, mostly due to high vibraion levels. I have a Palm IIIe which has IR capability.
Again I'm outof my element, but could something like a VT100 emulator running on the Palm be used to serially communicate with the PICAXE and download new timing data?
I understand there is a PILOT VT100 emulator although the type size is 3 x 5 which is not too easy to read. If something like this would work are there other VT100 emulators that are easier to read?
Could such an interface also be used to read the timer data?
The Palm III series seems to be selling for $15 to $20 on ebay. A lot better than the HP 200LX @ about $150 - $180 + $100 for a parallel port card.

Thanks again, te

The older Palms (IIIxe, V, etc) can communicate using either serial or simple IR (SIR). Most of the later Palms use IRDA only (most Zire and Treo processors have built-in IRDA), which is a more complex protocol. You want the device to be a Palm IIIx or higher and the OS to be version 4 (preferably 4.1 - the upgrade CDs are occasionally available on ebay).

SIR can be used as a "wireless serial" connection, but you would need to determine whether the terminal emulator can use the IR connection as a serial port (that's how the older Palm hardware is designed). If the emulator can use the IR port, then you could design a simple protocol to identify the data being sent (timer 1 versus timer 2, etc) and format the data that is read back.

If the emulator doesn't do all that you need, you can write your own Palm data communications using SIR - you write serial code but open the IR port instead of the serial port. This traffic control device http://www.radarsign.com uses SIR on a Palm IIIxe for configuration and data download. The Palm software was written in NSBasic for the Palm (about $150US) http://www.nsbasic.com/palm. I've been maintaining and updating the Palm software for several years.

Your application would need an IR LED and detector (available as a single unit) on the PICAXE board and probably some "glue" parts (level shifting) to make the IR interface look like a serial connection to the PICAXE.

If you want to pursue using the Palm and IR, I can provide some sample serial/SIR code in NSBasic. I can also ask the hardware designer at RadarSign which IR LED & detector they use - I know it's compatible with the Palm ;-)

John

 

[staylo]

Most 'Pocket PCs' (running a cut-down version of 'Windows CE', an operating system with similarities to [but not much compatibility with] the standard desktop PC Windows that we're used to) have an RS232 port, and usually output true RS232 voltage levels. IR is also fairly standard.

 

[krypton_john]

They do? An RS232 port? Neither my EeePC nor my iPaq do. In fact even my desktop PC lacks RS232. Its considered 'legacy' nowdays.

Howver every device these days has a USB serial port and USB-RS232 adapters are commonplace.

IR is a bit of a problem as it would be difficult to implement iRDA on a PicAXE. I was looking for an all in one iRDA module with built in serial stack but without success. However there are plenty of bluetooth devices around to do this.

 

[papaof2]

PDA - USB versus serial

Howver every device these days has a USB serial port and USB-RS232 adapters are commonplace.

But USB<->RS232 adapters don't work with 99% of PDAs. USB ports have one of two types of *hardware*:
master (on a PC) which can control USB slave devices
slave (on a PDA/camera/printer/etc) which can be controlled by a PC but cannot control other USB devices

There is a combination master/slave USB port chip that is intended for PDA & camera use (so the device can be controlled by a PC and it can control another device, such as a printer), but very few PDA's have the combo USB port.

John

 

[krypton_john]

Good point!

 

[Wrenow]

All of which is why I thought the Asus eeePC (or a cheap laptop) might be a decent solution.

1) unlike most PDAs, it should run the Picaxe IDE, since it is XP, not WinMobile or other.
2) it has 3 USB master ports (no serial port, though, sadly, so you would need to use a USB to serial cable).
3) as a bonus - it has an SD slot where you can store all the picaxe programs for loading. Built in Wifi and Bluetooth are also nice, but not necessarily relevant to the enquiry,

Cheers,

Wreno

And, yes, I DO want one. Specially hafer playing with one in the store. Oh well.

 

[krypton_john]

Now that the new model with the 9" screen is imminent, the current model will soon be very cheap.

Also, there's an active community of Eee modders about. The've done stuff like hacking into the case a bluetooth module. Somebody has probably hacked in a serial port by now as well.

I love my EeePC!

 

[staylo]

They do? An RS232 port? Neither my EeePC nor my iPaq do. In fact even my desktop PC lacks RS232. Its considered 'legacy' nowdays.

Sorry, I should have been more specific - most iPAQs have the pins available for RS232, though an adapter cable (straight-through wires rather than requiring electronics) is needed to utilise it.

 

[Dippy]

Re: Palms.
This is what I was told recently:-
"The older III series devices were serial as were some of the V series. Those can do some of what you might be looking for but will still be slaves."

Perhaps some clever person can clarify.

And also, it's all very well finding a PDA that can 'talk' to a PICAXE but can you programme it - i.e. to send/receive data. Personally, I'm not worried about running editor (though that'd be nice). More to send/receive data from a pre-programmed PICAXE.
A 'terminal' app is OK for some I guess but proper PDA programming is better/slicker.

 

[Wrenow]

That is one of my points, Dippy. The original query was, as clarified, and as I understand it, a way to dump programming in (or just data, but that would be additional steps to figure out). Remember, he is using a dos-based serial interface to dump the program in and to modify right now on his BS, so this is the methodology he is familiar with. With most palms, serial interface or no, you cannot run Editor. So they are not viable.

And, as Krypton John mentioned, with the new model out, as the new wears off of the original eeePC, the price should drop. By the way, KJ, since you have one, have you tried running Editor on it? Programming Picaxes? Any issues? Enquiring minds want to know... (they would make for really nice field kits, methinks).

Dang it, I really wanted one in Linux..........
But, watching for closeouts and specials anyway.....

Cheers,

Wreno

 

[hippy]

A simple list of "buy this" plus capabilities and maybe a star-rating for PDA's and Ultra-Portable PC's would be very useful given that there are so many around with varying capabilities. Criteria would be ( in ascending order of 'idealness' ) ...

Hardware

1) Has RS232 at -12V/+12V or 0V/+12V
2) Has RS232 at 0V/5V or 0V/3V3
3) Has USB but acts as a host allowing USB-to-Serial

Software

1) Does it run Windows ( ie runs Programming Editor )
2) Does it run Windows <something> ( ie runs VB/VC programs if not Prog Editor )
3) Does it deliver free programming with access to serial
4) Does it support add-on programming with access to serial
5) Does it include a terminal emulator

 

[Mycroft2152]

A simple list of "buy this" plus capabilities and maybe a star-rating for PDA's and Ultra-Portable PC's would be very useful given that there are so many around with varying capabilities. Criteria would be ( in ascending order of 'idealness' ) ...

Hardware

1) Has RS232 at -12V/+12V or 0V/+12V
2) Has RS232 at 0V/5V or 0V/3V3
3) Has USB but acts as a host allowing USB-to-Serial

Software

1) Does it run Windows ( ie runs Programming Editor )
2) Does it run Windows <something> ( ie runs VB/VC programs if not Prog Editor )
3) Does it deliver free programming with access to serial
4) Does it support add-on programming with access to serial
5) Does it include a terminal emulator

Hippy,

This discussion is important and should be moved to its own thread.

 

[Mycroft2152]

We seem to be forgetting the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Next thing someone will suggest is to use a CRAY supercomputer--because its coming down in price.

The handheld unit needs to send between six and ten values to set the timer. That is it, no reprogramming the Picaxe.

PDA's would be good (and cheap) because they can have a decent user interface programmed in.

There are other options to send a simple serial string. One of which is the ubiquitous TI-89 graphing calculator. which has been around for years and is still manufactured. Upon closer look, you will find they have a serial port and are programmed in BASIC. Ti provides the BASIC software on thier website.

Here's a link to a robot from Norland Research based on the TI graphing calculator.it's a bit dated, but still valid.

http://www.smallrobot.com/scimath.html

An IR link might be acceptible, if there is enough power for it. This is going into a glider so weight and size is critical. T is currently using 4 caps as power storage.

Digging though my digital grimoire, I found this old project site from the heydays of the PALM. Go to the interface page to see how to build the Ir interface.

http://www.sirpic.com/

Myc

 

[krypton_john]

That is one of my points, Dippy. The original query was, as clarified, and as I understand it, a way to dump programming in (or just data, but that would be additional steps to figure out). Remember, he is using a dos-based serial interface to dump the program in and to modify right now on his BS, so this is the methodology he is familiar with. With most palms, serial interface or no, you cannot run Editor. So they are not viable.

And, as Krypton John mentioned, with the new model out, as the new wears off of the original eeePC, the price should drop. By the way, KJ, since you have one, have you tried running Editor on it? Programming Picaxes? Any issues? Enquiring minds want to know... (they would make for really nice field kits, methinks).

Dang it, I really wanted one in Linux..........
But, watching for closeouts and specials anyway.....

Cheers,

Wreno

Hi,

my EeePC is running the Linux distro, but I've turned off the noddy desktop so it runs the full Gnome desktop. I think you can still buy them with Linux installed and they are naturally cheaper than the WinXP installed ones.

I've not attempted to run the Picaxe editor on it - does it run under WINE? I would be happy to give this a try but am building fences this weekend so won't get to it for another week.

Cheers,
JohnO

 

[tiredengr]

John,

You make some very interesting points. I looked up the two referenced sites. The NSBasic really looks interesting. I found that my laptop runs IRDA rather than SIR. Had hopes of communicating with the Palm IIIe. I will investigate a USB to serial converter. I am bidding on a Palm serial cable from Hong Kong. When I get into this further I may take you up on your offer for sample code. Yes, I would like to know which LED and detector are used in the radar sign application.
Thanks for you informative post. te

 

[papaof2]

I think RadarSign is using the MCP2120 chip with the IR xmtr/rcvr shown in Microchip's AN756 http://borg.cc.gatech.edu/gnats/doc/ir/00756a.pdf Tuesday is the earliest I can verify this information.

You can find some of my sample Palm programs (and source) here: http://www.wizardanswers.com/software/nsbsource.html

The Palms that do SIR can also do IRDA - you *can* transfer data between a Palm and a late model PC that way.

John