PCB Software
- Thread starter wildbill
- Start date
Bloody-orc
Senior Member
use eagle www.cadsoft.com
find the students version that is free to download. I use that and i cant complain. it is kinda neat. you vreate a schematic and it automatically makes the board. Well not the tracks but it shows you with yellow lines the pins thet need to be connected.
find the students version that is free to download. I use that and i cant complain. it is kinda neat. you vreate a schematic and it automatically makes the board. Well not the tracks but it shows you with yellow lines the pins thet need to be connected.
bgrabowski
Senior Member
The simplest for 11-16 year old students to grasp is PCB Wizard by New Wave Concepts.
frankeltham
Member
Do try the above first.
As you get more adventurous (and you WILL)try Seetrax Ranger2XL or Easy PC. There are probably a zillion others, but these are the only two 'professional' ones I've tried.
They both have free (limited) downloads for you to try.
Both will cost you money but can do fairly big boards and come with fairly good autorouters. But they can be a little daunting to start off with.
If I were starting again, I'd go for Easy PC but Ranger has some plus points.
Based on my own mistakes have a GOOD think about what you might want to do NEXT year.
Then choose.
Remember, everyone will have their favourite because they have got 'used' to it. No doubt, each have good points.
As you get more adventurous (and you WILL)try Seetrax Ranger2XL or Easy PC. There are probably a zillion others, but these are the only two 'professional' ones I've tried.
They both have free (limited) downloads for you to try.
Both will cost you money but can do fairly big boards and come with fairly good autorouters. But they can be a little daunting to start off with.
If I were starting again, I'd go for Easy PC but Ranger has some plus points.
Based on my own mistakes have a GOOD think about what you might want to do NEXT year.
Then choose.
Remember, everyone will have their favourite because they have got 'used' to it. No doubt, each have good points.
Michael 2727
Senior Member
It all depends on how you are going to use the end product, e.g. home made PCBs or send
them to a manufacturer.
There are many output formats and every
country has adopted its own standard, some
will only use the local standards to produce
PCBs from. Then there are companies like EasyPCB who only use their own software.
I live in Australia, the standard here is
Protel format .PCB, their early version DOS
software, Easytrax and now Autotrax as well
are free to download. But being DOS apps
they can have issues with Video drivers and
Printing can be tricky, but most of these
can be worked around. I think its great
anyway. Autotrax is slightly more flexible
of the 2, pad and track editing wise.
There will be a hundred opinions on what to
use, just find one you like and you can get
a useable output file to work with, printing
wise etc.
them to a manufacturer.
There are many output formats and every
country has adopted its own standard, some
will only use the local standards to produce
PCBs from. Then there are companies like EasyPCB who only use their own software.
I live in Australia, the standard here is
Protel format .PCB, their early version DOS
software, Easytrax and now Autotrax as well
are free to download. But being DOS apps
they can have issues with Video drivers and
Printing can be tricky, but most of these
can be worked around. I think its great
anyway. Autotrax is slightly more flexible
of the 2, pad and track editing wise.
There will be a hundred opinions on what to
use, just find one you like and you can get
a useable output file to work with, printing
wise etc.
frankeltham
Member
Gerber
Phew - you're likely to start a serious flame war argument here! I'll speak from your presumed schools need, but others working on NASA type projects may find this trivial. YMMV
Following my successful -mumble- 1986 (!) experiences with WinTek's $$$ DOS "smARTWORK",I seem to have spent the subsequent decades trying to find a "Word" equivalent,<b>affordable & educational </b> PCB package, & have to say it's still a jungle! From my perhaps wider perspective down here in colonial NZ, a significant cultural slant seems often attached to CAD software too- US sourced offerings may make assumptions that are not valid for a UK end user. This may seem trivial, but educationally it's as crucial a difference as US/UK humour!
A huge swag of largely UK derived packages arose ~Y2K & I've explored most thanks to today's easy Internet downloads. Opinions differ widely -what's easy for some can be a nightmare for others- <b>EAGLE </b> (Easily Applicable Graphical Layout Editor) is well thought of, but my teaching experiences indicate a considerable learning curve is involved. It seems to suit personal taming rather than group delivery & tuition - classroom educators will know the frustrations of trying to focus "25 kids at crusty old PCs"...
The latest version (June release ?) of Crocodile Clips "Technology" <A href='http://www.crocodile-clips.com/crocodile/technology/index.jsp ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>looks most promising, since it'll have it's layout designer (Real PCB) inbuilt. <i>Croc. Clips </i> itself has of course been considered THE electronics educational package since the late 90's, & a large part of it's appeal is that it allows users to SEE the components on screen. Even R colour codes are realistic.
Although schematic symbols are largely universal, us old hands often quite forget many new to electronics haven't the faintest idea about how circuits are laid out or how things actually appear! Hence "What's that funny flat thing that looks like a spider" is a typical early teens observation. It's akin to us mere civilians staring blind at a map festooned with military symbols <A href='http://sill-www.army.mil/Graphics/MilSym/Page.html ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>perhaps- "Which way is the enemy ?"
Following my successful -mumble- 1986 (!) experiences with WinTek's $$$ DOS "smARTWORK",I seem to have spent the subsequent decades trying to find a "Word" equivalent,<b>affordable & educational </b> PCB package, & have to say it's still a jungle! From my perhaps wider perspective down here in colonial NZ, a significant cultural slant seems often attached to CAD software too- US sourced offerings may make assumptions that are not valid for a UK end user. This may seem trivial, but educationally it's as crucial a difference as US/UK humour!
A huge swag of largely UK derived packages arose ~Y2K & I've explored most thanks to today's easy Internet downloads. Opinions differ widely -what's easy for some can be a nightmare for others- <b>EAGLE </b> (Easily Applicable Graphical Layout Editor) is well thought of, but my teaching experiences indicate a considerable learning curve is involved. It seems to suit personal taming rather than group delivery & tuition - classroom educators will know the frustrations of trying to focus "25 kids at crusty old PCs"...
The latest version (June release ?) of Crocodile Clips "Technology" <A href='http://www.crocodile-clips.com/crocodile/technology/index.jsp ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>looks most promising, since it'll have it's layout designer (Real PCB) inbuilt. <i>Croc. Clips </i> itself has of course been considered THE electronics educational package since the late 90's, & a large part of it's appeal is that it allows users to SEE the components on screen. Even R colour codes are realistic.
Although schematic symbols are largely universal, us old hands often quite forget many new to electronics haven't the faintest idea about how circuits are laid out or how things actually appear! Hence "What's that funny flat thing that looks like a spider" is a typical early teens observation. It's akin to us mere civilians staring blind at a map festooned with military symbols <A href='http://sill-www.army.mil/Graphics/MilSym/Page.html ' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>perhaps- "Which way is the enemy ?"
triple crown
New Member
you could also try pad2pad, a nice pcb software
I actually use the demo version of Techsoft 2D Design. It's not a PCB package, but I've found auto-routing stuff to be less-than-impressive unless you want to shell out £500 or so (I don't), and the standard libraries of components for some PCB packages are pretty limited as well. 2D design gives me full control over the PCB, awkward bits are just as easy as easy bits, and the wonderfulness of Clipboard Viewer means I can get round the "no saving in the demo version" limitation.
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Let me throw another PCB program into the pot, DipTrace.
It's easy to use and has a 250 pin limit on the free version. The support for it is great.
I was an EAGLE user for many years and agree it is very good, but a real bear to learn. I've since shifted over to DipTrace.
Myc
It's easy to use and has a 250 pin limit on the free version. The support for it is great.
I was an EAGLE user for many years and agree it is very good, but a real bear to learn. I've since shifted over to DipTrace.
Myc
Rickharris
Senior Member
If Uk school and you use 2D design or similiar cad package you can use that.
Build a library of components and you can reuse them.
Build a library of components and you can reuse them.
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
The DipTrace free version is limited to 250 pins.
For my PICAXE use, 250 pins is more than enough.
I make my own pcb's using the Toner Transfer process and the laser printouts are perfect.
There are other output limitations as far as DXF files, etc.
Good Luck,
Myc
For my PICAXE use, 250 pins is more than enough.
I make my own pcb's using the Toner Transfer process and the laser printouts are perfect.
There are other output limitations as far as DXF files, etc.
Good Luck,
Myc
Martyn Butler
New Member
i personally use
Express PCB
and its free
Express PCB
and its free
Michael 2727
Senior Member
Has anybody in the UK had experience getting
PCBs made commercially, and if so what format
File they prefer to use.
I am looking for someone who can use the
Protel format .pcb file, to manufacture from.
PCBs made commercially, and if so what format
File they prefer to use.
I am looking for someone who can use the
Protel format .pcb file, to manufacture from.
Michael 2727
Senior Member
I checked out PCBtrain, wow expensive, nearly x 2
what I'm paying here.
Couldn't get Bartek, server may be down, just sat there.
what I'm paying here.
Couldn't get Bartek, server may be down, just sat there.
I like Protel Schematic and Autotrax personally. But I'm biased. I've been using them for 20 years. The fact that it is DOS is an advantage to me, because I run the applications entirely from a USB memory stick, on any PC with USB. The default video driver seems to work on all machines I have tried. I got around the drive letter allocation with a batch file, so that the path specific macros work for any letter.
Printing output has been made easier by a few DOS die-hards who wrote some drivers for pcx format.
see
http://www.airborn.com.au/layout/printdrv.html
Whatever you use, there are plenty of experts on this forum who can help with the heavy going. So choose the most powerful for your needs, not the simplest. After all we are all here to learn.
By the way, Autotrax can also output Gerber format.
Printing output has been made easier by a few DOS die-hards who wrote some drivers for pcx format.
see
http://www.airborn.com.au/layout/printdrv.html
Whatever you use, there are plenty of experts on this forum who can help with the heavy going. So choose the most powerful for your needs, not the simplest. After all we are all here to learn.
By the way, Autotrax can also output Gerber format.
If its any use, heres a recent quote or two from Bartek, if its any use.
First, a small 2" x 2.5" s/s through hole board with 62 holes.
40off @ £3.75 each . Plots £70. +VAT.
And for double-sided with 495 holes.
30 off 9"x6" d/s with pth @ £15 each +VAT.
Plots £70.(Odd, same as single sided. Hadn't noticed that before.)
All idented and solder resist and chopped up if you ask. Claimed 10day delivery from confirmation. Obv. longer if you haven't an account.
Anyway, I'm not going to sing their praises anymore as I'm not on commission. I'm sure everyone has their favourite supplier who is better than anybody elses... prepare for dozens of posts....
M.B.T.Y.!
First, a small 2" x 2.5" s/s through hole board with 62 holes.
40off @ £3.75 each . Plots £70. +VAT.
And for double-sided with 495 holes.
30 off 9"x6" d/s with pth @ £15 each +VAT.
Plots £70.(Odd, same as single sided. Hadn't noticed that before.)
All idented and solder resist and chopped up if you ask. Claimed 10day delivery from confirmation. Obv. longer if you haven't an account.
Anyway, I'm not going to sing their praises anymore as I'm not on commission. I'm sure everyone has their favourite supplier who is better than anybody elses... prepare for dozens of posts....
M.B.T.Y.!
Rickharris
Senior Member
<A href='http://max8888.orcon.net.nz/pcbs.htm' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>
Not directly a PBC software product but shows how to make PBCs at home using Eagle free software and a laser peinter - Looks like good results as well.
Valuable if you havn't tried to do this before.
Not directly a PBC software product but shows how to make PBCs at home using Eagle free software and a laser peinter - Looks like good results as well.
Valuable if you havn't tried to do this before.
triple crown
New Member
The reason why some of the cost are high <100 boards is because they have a setup cost even on prototypes. The cost is a one time thing usually and then you order more and the price come down. That is why I make my own boards for prototyping and then get them made, work out all the bugs on the board first before running off a larger quantity.
triple crown
New Member
I just quoted my board at PCBTrain and the boards were a dollar more for qty 100 than what I quoted at pad2pad.com.
"Not directly a PBC software product but shows how to make PBCs at home using Eagle free software and a laser peinter - Looks like good results as well.
Valuable if you havn't tried to do this before."
I use a similar method, but with Press-n-Peel "special" paper, so the toner comes off onto the board easier. It's a bugger to shift once you've etched though. I use a Polifix block, and it takes ages.
I also have a UV exposure unit that I got for pennies from a local auction, so I can do "proper" PCB manufacture, but my laser doesn't give a very clean output (needs a new toner - expensive!), and I get lots of breaks in the tracks.
Valuable if you havn't tried to do this before."
I use a similar method, but with Press-n-Peel "special" paper, so the toner comes off onto the board easier. It's a bugger to shift once you've etched though. I use a Polifix block, and it takes ages.
I also have a UV exposure unit that I got for pennies from a local auction, so I can do "proper" PCB manufacture, but my laser doesn't give a very clean output (needs a new toner - expensive!), and I get lots of breaks in the tracks.
Fowkc, I was getting similar problems with my old laser too.
So, at great expense, I changed printer and the media too and that sorted most of the probs. Expensive, yes, but then so are a lot of mucked-up photoresist boards. The only problem that remains are large areas of copper where it gets patchy in the middle.
(I know why, so I don't want a lecture, but I can't afford the type of laser that will give perfect results).
A black felt-tip gets around that.
I see Rapid Electronics, amongst others, does a "specially formulated" coated film for lasers at 50p per sheet - never tried it, but if its any good and it saves on FR4 then I'll get some. Anyone tried it (or similar?) Its (apparently) not the same as laser OHP film.
Incidentally, has any tried those cheap CNC-type drilling machines such as sold by Milford Instruments? I'm tired of drilling 400 holes in a prototype board.
So, at great expense, I changed printer and the media too and that sorted most of the probs. Expensive, yes, but then so are a lot of mucked-up photoresist boards. The only problem that remains are large areas of copper where it gets patchy in the middle.
(I know why, so I don't want a lecture, but I can't afford the type of laser that will give perfect results).
A black felt-tip gets around that.
I see Rapid Electronics, amongst others, does a "specially formulated" coated film for lasers at 50p per sheet - never tried it, but if its any good and it saves on FR4 then I'll get some. Anyone tried it (or similar?) Its (apparently) not the same as laser OHP film.
Incidentally, has any tried those cheap CNC-type drilling machines such as sold by Milford Instruments? I'm tired of drilling 400 holes in a prototype board.
Rickharris
Senior Member
CNC machine works - PROVIDED the line up is correct - a 2 mm pad isn't a big target!! Batter option is to cut the pcb on the machine and then drill it befor you remove it. Techsoft 2d design offer some hardware to do this.
My Samsung ML4500 gives great output and only cost £99 from tesco - Downside? After 2 years I can't get the toner any more so off to get it refilled when the last of my "stock" runs out.
Edited by - rickharris on 2/25/2006 9:53:20 PM
My Samsung ML4500 gives great output and only cost £99 from tesco - Downside? After 2 years I can't get the toner any more so off to get it refilled when the last of my "stock" runs out.
Edited by - rickharris on 2/25/2006 9:53:20 PM
RE numbers:
39-0774 (10 sheets) £4.80
39-0776 (100 sheets) £41.95
I got the numbers from the 2004 (printed) catalogue - sod's law is bound to apply as I haven't checked on the website.
Though, on more than one occasion, things are NOT AVAILABLE on the website but ARE when you phone. And I mean both RE's sites.
So, even it ain't on-line, it might be worth phoning them.
Edited by - dippy on 2/25/2006 10:17:54 PM
39-0774 (10 sheets) £4.80
39-0776 (100 sheets) £41.95
I got the numbers from the 2004 (printed) catalogue - sod's law is bound to apply as I haven't checked on the website.
Though, on more than one occasion, things are NOT AVAILABLE on the website but ARE when you phone. And I mean both RE's sites.
So, even it ain't on-line, it might be worth phoning them.
Edited by - dippy on 2/25/2006 10:17:54 PM
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
There are a numbers of "papers" that work well for the toner transfer process in making pcbs. At very different prices.
Slick pages from magazines (free), clay coated inkjet papers and glosssy photo papers work well. The differences are in the heat and pressure and in the way to remove the paper after 'ironing'.
I've been using clay coated inkjet paper (about 4 cents a sheet) very successfully. I soak the paper in a solution of hot water and automatic dishwashing detergent for 10 minutes and the paper comes off easily.
There are long (ad nausem) discussions about papers and the Toner Transfer process at the Homebrew PCBs Yahoo group.
Even using the Press and Peel film, it usually takes a few tries to get the right combination of laser printer, paper, heat and pressure, so be patient.
TANSTAAFL!
Myc
Slick pages from magazines (free), clay coated inkjet papers and glosssy photo papers work well. The differences are in the heat and pressure and in the way to remove the paper after 'ironing'.
I've been using clay coated inkjet paper (about 4 cents a sheet) very successfully. I soak the paper in a solution of hot water and automatic dishwashing detergent for 10 minutes and the paper comes off easily.
There are long (ad nausem) discussions about papers and the Toner Transfer process at the Homebrew PCBs Yahoo group.
Even using the Press and Peel film, it usually takes a few tries to get the right combination of laser printer, paper, heat and pressure, so be patient.
TANSTAAFL!
Myc
Yes, I was referring to transparency-type (hence my comment about OHP transparency).
That's all I use as I tend to make several prototypes and press'n'peel methods would be tedious. i.e. several from a single transparency at 100% etching success.
Its the drilling that I can't stand...
RickH: Would you recommend the Milford Instrument's baby 'CNC' drilling machine?
My biggest boards are about 6" x 6" - is that too fiddly for it?
Edited by - dippy on 2/26/2006 12:02:54 PM
That's all I use as I tend to make several prototypes and press'n'peel methods would be tedious. i.e. several from a single transparency at 100% etching success.
Its the drilling that I can't stand...
RickH: Would you recommend the Milford Instrument's baby 'CNC' drilling machine?
My biggest boards are about 6" x 6" - is that too fiddly for it?
Edited by - dippy on 2/26/2006 12:02:54 PM
Rickharris
Senior Member
Hi,
as far as Millford CNC machine - I assume you mean the wooden kit that uses a dremel as the drill?
I haven't see or used one and would suspect the rigidity of such a light design.
We have a Boxford router at school and I have made a converter to hold a PCB drill in the collet. I have tried this with varied success - as I say aligning the PCB is the hard part.
Actually easiest to drill first and then align the track layout over the holes but still tricky.
thre are several DIY options out there many detailed on web sites. Software tor ead standard PCB drill files is available as well why not save a packet and build one from scratch.
You could develop an X,Y table to position the PCB and do the dirlling by hand thus saving on computing power and providing a human level of error checking.
A Gcode file would give the x,y coordinates that could be used to drive a couple of stepper motors. Linear bearings and some steel tube makes up the hardware.
Sounds like a Picaxe project in there
as far as Millford CNC machine - I assume you mean the wooden kit that uses a dremel as the drill?
I haven't see or used one and would suspect the rigidity of such a light design.
We have a Boxford router at school and I have made a converter to hold a PCB drill in the collet. I have tried this with varied success - as I say aligning the PCB is the hard part.
Actually easiest to drill first and then align the track layout over the holes but still tricky.
thre are several DIY options out there many detailed on web sites. Software tor ead standard PCB drill files is available as well why not save a packet and build one from scratch.
You could develop an X,Y table to position the PCB and do the dirlling by hand thus saving on computing power and providing a human level of error checking.
A Gcode file would give the x,y coordinates that could be used to drive a couple of stepper motors. Linear bearings and some steel tube makes up the hardware.
Sounds like a Picaxe project in there
Mycroft2152
Senior Member
Definitely a PICAXE Project in there!
With a little planning ahead, like mounting the compnonets on a 0.05" grid and drilling only at the grid points. You reduce the complexity a great deal. Then 2 bytes would give you any position on a roughly 5" x 5" grid.
It might even be possible to download the entire coordinate set into a picaxe and run the pcb driller without the pc!
P H Anderson has a couple of stepper driver programs on his site.
TANSTAAFL!
Myc
With a little planning ahead, like mounting the compnonets on a 0.05" grid and drilling only at the grid points. You reduce the complexity a great deal. Then 2 bytes would give you any position on a roughly 5" x 5" grid.
It might even be possible to download the entire coordinate set into a picaxe and run the pcb driller without the pc!
P H Anderson has a couple of stepper driver programs on his site.
TANSTAAFL!
Myc
Rickharris
Senior Member
<A href='http://www.mail-archive.com/chipdir-l@fatcity.com/msg00480.html' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>
looks like lots of good information here. Seems there was an elektor project to do a PCB drill a while ago.
<A href='http://cstep.luberth.com/PCBtest.htm' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>
A PCB engraving effort
Edited by - rickharris on 2/26/2006 5:36:30 PM
looks like lots of good information here. Seems there was an elektor project to do a PCB drill a while ago.
<A href='http://cstep.luberth.com/PCBtest.htm' Target=_Blank>External Web Link</a>
A PCB engraving effort
Edited by - rickharris on 2/26/2006 5:36:30 PM
Yes, I was referring to the wooden one plus dremel. (Controlled by a Stamp 2 isn't it??). I'm a bit worried about robustness too. But then as a kit inc VB software for £189 what can you expect?
I haven't the budget you poor under-funded schools have for buying Boxfords (cough cough!). I bet that machine was a bit more than £189!!
It would make a GREAT project, and reading an Excellon file is a piece of cake.
There's quite a lot to it though isn't there, including good mechanics/drives with minimal sloppiness/backlash. And 0.05" grid really isn't fine enough for high-population boards. You'd really need reproducibiltiy of ten times better than that.
The Milford wooden one claims 0.1mm.
If you can have it ready for next Monday that would be great. Thanks.
Perhaps I could convert my Bridgeport to CNC - controlled by Picaxe.
I haven't the budget you poor under-funded schools have for buying Boxfords (cough cough!). I bet that machine was a bit more than £189!!
It would make a GREAT project, and reading an Excellon file is a piece of cake.
There's quite a lot to it though isn't there, including good mechanics/drives with minimal sloppiness/backlash. And 0.05" grid really isn't fine enough for high-population boards. You'd really need reproducibiltiy of ten times better than that.
The Milford wooden one claims 0.1mm.
If you can have it ready for next Monday that would be great. Thanks.
Perhaps I could convert my Bridgeport to CNC - controlled by Picaxe.