MEasuring motor current

Kiwi Bruv

Member
I am trying to measure the current draw of my robot to size the battery pack. I currently have 2 x 12v Pb acids in series. I put the MM in series just after the +ve terminal so I can see what current the 3 motors are drawing. When I put the MM in the circuit it says 4 Amps which is about right from the datasheets but the motors don't go.

I have never measured current draw of motors before. What's happening and is the reading correct?
 

premelec

Senior Member
4 amps 24 volts = 96 watts... is something smoking or getting hot? Or are your motors AC types trying to run on DC - more detail please!
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
Everything is cool for the 30s or so I let it sit there. The motors draw about 2A under no load and stall out at v high current (70A). They are Mabuchi 550RS carbon brush motors. Quite grunty because the bot is about 5KG.

Without the MM in the circuit everything is fine.
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
Sorry a few more details.

Two motors are 24Vdc gearheads, one is a 12V dc Mabuchi RS550. All supposed to draw a little over 1A under no load. I take a 12v tap off for the RS550 and the others see the full 24V.

Even if I take a motor completely out of the circuit and just have a motor and battery with the MM in series the current indicates but the motor won't go with the MM in series.

 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
update:

There is something strange about the ranging on my MM. I just had it working with a small motor using the mA range. This also worked with the two 24V motors and showed they were drawing 200 mA each at no load. So I just had the meter overranged.

Then I tried it with the 12 V motor and it wouldn't work and now I can't get it working again on the other motors even if I switch the MM off/on.

The Mabuchi can blow a 5A fuse when getting started so I am wondering if it's spiking the MM in some way.
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
update:

There is something strange about the ranging on my MM. I just had it working with a small motor using the mA range. This also worked with the two 24V motors and showed they were drawing 200 mA each at no load. So I just had the meter overranged.

Then I tried it with the 12 V motor and it wouldn't work and now I can't get it working again on the other motors even if I switch the MM off/on.

The Mabuchi can blow a 5A fuse when getting started so I am wondering if it's spiking the MM in some way.
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
I have blown the 400mA fuse in my MM. This explains why I can't get it working again at the mA range. Strange why it indicates a particular value though.

Don't understand why the 10A range doesn't work though as the Mabuchi datasheet definitely indicates at least an amp at no load.
 

skyv

New Member
Hi Kiwi Bruv


Some possible reasons why your mm is not working on the 10A range are;

1/ Most mm's have a seperate input socket for the 10A range. Are you using that ?

2/ There may be a seperate fuse for the 10A range.

3/ The mm could be faulty on that range.

You can obviously check the first 2. Probably can't do much about number 3.

skyv
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
I'm using the 10A socket and I just double checked the 10A fuse is Ok. When I have just the Mabuchi in series with the MM it indicates 1.97 A but tthe motor doesn't go. Take the MM out and the motor goes.

Need to get another MM or a clamp meter I think, I can't work out what's going on.
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
OK, got a new fuse and I can measure the current on the 24V gearheads no problem - in either 10A or mA sockets as long as I have mA range set it indicates 200mA. If I use the 10A range and the 10A socket it reads 1.97A

For the Mabuchi motor I risked the new fuse and tried the mA range just in case and it O/L as expected. But using the 10 A range it says 1.97V and the motor doesn't go.

So if I use the 10A socket on the mA range it works, for any motor using the 10A socket and the 10A range it indicates 1.97A and the motor doesn't go. But the 10A fuse is intact!!!!!?

It's like the Mabuchi is drawing current right on the edge of the ranges, high enough to overload the mA input at the start but too low for the 10A input when running. The 10A input resolves to 10mA, so it should be OK and the datasheet says 1.15A no load.

 

andrewpro

New Member
ok, this is going ot be a do as I say and not as I do sort of thing, and really dont recommend doing this as even 10ma is enough to stop your heart should you screw it up..but...

Try to make a bridge in the wire going to the problem motor using a heavy guage wire...enough to get the motor going. Then hook/hold your test leads across the bridge and remove the wire, in essence sending all the current through your meter. You may get a reading then. It may also fry your meter right off, but hey...youve already done that ;)

Another, much more safe, route would be to get a current sensing chip from allegro or many others and put it inline with the motor, then jsut read the voltage/amperage whatever it outputs off of the chip, then you dojnt ahve ot ahve your meter in there at all.

--Andy P
 

evanh

Senior Member
Can you turn the motors by hand?

What is the voltage at the motor when it's connected to the battery?

 

premelec

Senior Member
From what you say it is pretty evident there is something off in your MM - it should be a very low resistance perhaps 20 milliohms on the 10 amp range. If you just pull the leads out of the MM and stick those ends together does the motor run? I've had leads fail and circuit boards inside MMs fail. You might just take a piece of wire = .05 ohms and put it in series with the motor and then measure the voltage across that on a MM .2volt range - I = V/R ... anyhow it sounds like a MM failure with it's leads being considered in the factors....
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
I think premelec has hit the nail on the head. You are wasting a lot of time fault finding with faulty test equipment. The very fact that everything is fine without the MM in circuit tells you that!
Cheap ready made test leads are often to blame. They are often crimped onto the wire insulation with very little copper making contact with the probes/clips. Also, the leads that come with a MM that has a 10A current range often cannot cope with 10A or will have such a high resistance that there is so much volt-drop that your circuit looks like it has a large resistance. The fuse is there to prevent fire. If it has blown, there is a high chance that the MM sense resistor has also blown, especially if the fault was due to placing the meter across a voltage whilst in current measuring mode.

As for your quest to size the battery for a robot, it sounds as if you already have a good feel for the motor current. Measuring will only give a guidline in the same way that the component specs will. The method I use is to fit a battery-pack (roughly spec'd from "feel") and simply see how long it runs under simulated load. Erratic current demand affects batteries in peculiar ways and is very hard to predict even if you do have accurate current measurements for your motors.
I notice you are using Pb type. Have you considered how deep you are going to discharge them? I have found that anything deeper than about 25% reduces their life considerably. They are great for standby use but for deep cycle use I still find NiCd the best. NiMh are OK but still a little expensive and not as forgiving as NiCd. Pb is cheap though, even if rather heavy for comparable capacity.
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
Thanks everyone.

I'm using PbAcid batts just because I had them available. I intend to use NiCd as I have couple of cordless drill packs spare.

Just not sure these are OK at only 1200 mAh, hence wanting to know the full current draw.
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
As a very rough guideline, for steady state driving on a flat smooth surface, it will be about no-load current +20%. Racing over long grass at full throttle will be about 60% of stall current. Anything over that and you are over-driving the motors and should consider either a lower gear ratio or lower voltage.
 

bob weir

New Member
the 'can motor' i use the most is about 35mm dia by 63mm long w/ a 3.2mm shaft.
in use w/ 8x1300maH NiCad's it draws from
100 to 200 watts of power. by using a series resistance made up of 3ea 0.1 ohm 5 watt ceramic resistors in parallel the current can be easily measured during bench run tests. this sense resistor is calibrated with the same battery pack and a MM w/ a 10 A range plus some car 12 V lite bulbs for a load. the no. of bulbs is easily changed for more data points at more current. the result is a 'calibrated' sense resistor to the tune of about 3.14 A per 0.1 volt. once in a circuit with the can motor as the load with the same batt pack a MM is placed across the sense R and sw'd to its 0.0 to 2.0 volt scale. the 100 - 200 watts of power drawn corresponds to about
9 to 19 amps. by switching to a 3-cell pack of lithium batteries it has drawn 216 watts/21.7 amps. pretty amazing considering the lithium pack weighs about 1/4 what the nicads do.
earlier attempts to measure the motor current with its 10 amp range were abandoned when it was noticed the rpm's were less than with the no-MM/series sense
resistor setup. the conclusion was that the
MM's inner sense resistor was adding much more resistance that the 3 parallel 0.1 ohm ceramics.
to clarify ... the MM's 10 amp range is
suitable for calibrating the sense R with lite bulbs as a test load. but with the motor as the load i wanted maximum output and the MM's inner sense R robbed too much of the available power and the motor ran slower.
 

Kiwi Bruv

Member
Many thanks.

A Q about battery capacity...

If I have a 1.2 Ahr battery pack and my bot draws 2.4 A continuously then theoretically I will only get 30 mins operation?

So for more capacity I need to put battery packs in parallel?
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
Batteries are normally specified at the 10Hr rate. That is a 1.2AHr battery will last 10 hours at 120mA. At 1.2A it should last 1 hour but in reality you will probably only get about 45 mins. At higher currents you will get even less than the calculated value.
Batteries can be wired in parallel but it is not advisable. If a cell fails (or if you miss wire) there will be extremely high currents and a potential explosion if adequate precautions are not taken. ALWAYS put a fuse in line with NiCds and put one in line with each pack if wired in parallel. Also make sure that your on/off switch also breaks the connection between packs to avoid self discharge because two packs will never have exactly the same voltage.
Consider putting your batteries in series and building a "Buck Converter". All you need is a pokey P type transistor a fast rectifier an inductor and a low ESR cap. If the transistor is switched with 50% duty, you will get 50% of the pack voltage at twice the current "seen" by the pack.
I've not yet tried using an 08M or similar to control such a beast but it should be possible. My only reservation is that at around 3kHz PWM, the inductor would need to be physically quite large and the switching frequency would be audible. (I normally run such devices at around 50kHz - 100kHz).
I have some leftover cores after my fluorescent project so I might have a bash at an 08M controlled high current buck converter myself in the not too distant future.
 
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