bistable relay driver circuit?

ciseco

Senior Member
Hi all,

I'm trying to find a circuit to drive a bistable relay (finder 40.52 5v) from two outputs on a picaxe, I've tried the one I've attached and it sort of works (on the multimeter I see + and - swings) but I suspect that because the finder relay I'm using has a 22ohm coil unlike the 250ohm it was destined for, is the issue. I droped the 75ohm resistors sucessivly to 6ohm which was helping as the voltage across the relay gained to +/- 1.5v, I cant get it enough to actually drive it though, I've used BC817 tranies, would swapping them for something else help?

Any input really welcomed

Cheers

Miles
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BeanieBots

Moderator
Ohms law!
Your pull-ups should not be more than about 1/10 the coil resistance!
IMHO you would be better off with a proper bi-directional drive but even something like the L293D will give you problems due to the 1.5v ish drop inherent in the design.
The only other alternative would be to increase the coil supply voltage to say around 12v. Even then, your pull-ups would still need to be about 27R.
I'm scratching my head to see if there is anything clever that could be done with some diodes and electrolytics but at the moment it is alluding me.
 

ciseco

Senior Member
The drop might not be a problem as the psu gives out 6-7volts, the picaxe circuit is running at 3.3v, the tranies go straight across the input voltage not the regulator. I did try it on a variable psu and at about 11 something got hot enough to smoke the flux so I immediatly turned it back down.

I've seen this on the maxim site but cant find a uk seller.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3288

do you think using a couple of fets like in fig.3 might do it?

Cheers

Miles
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BeanieBots

Moderator
Using FETs would be marginly better but probably insignificantly so.
It still comes down to ohms law.
Do you have a spec for the realy?
Let us know the minimum pull-in voltage and it's a very simple sum to work out the maximum resistor value. Then it's also a very simple sum to work out the required current handling of the transistor and if it will smoke or not.
 

ciseco

Senior Member
Spec sheet is here, no one to my knowledge actively sells these I had to request them to be manufactured from finder directly, so I've few places to turn to for advice :(

Page 7/16 - 5V AC/DC bistable Umin 4v Umax 5.5v resistance 23ohms

It's the only "resonably" inexpensive latching 16A mains relay about, fujitsu just made a song and dance of doing an 8A relay (and associated benefits) and finder dont really see this as a mainstream product yet, which is a shame.

For battery power and for energy saving devices (which is what I'm working on) the ability to fire it for a few milliseconds over constantly powering a similar normal relay is huge. A similar constant relay turned on for just 1 hour if using this could be switched on and off once a day for over 7 years :)

Now imagine those bye bye standbye and X10 devices that I have on my TV, lights etc, in a normal 6 hours of evening watching I could perform the same function for 44 years. By replacing just what I have it'd be worth nearly 3 days of electric over the year, I'm already using only 40% of what I did two years ago, squeezing the sponge is getting ever more difficult :)

http://www.findernet.com/comuni/pdf/S40FR.pdf

Cheers

Miles
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BeanieBots

Moderator
On page 8 is this circuit, I wonder if there's an IC I can emulate such a circuit with?
The L293D H-Bridge. (but you would need about 6v drive).
Or make your own H-Bridge. Circuits abound on this forum.

Alternatively, use a latching relay which has dual coils. One for on, one for off.
Sticking with your single transistor method, to obtain the minimum 4v excitation, you need to use resistors no higher than 5R6 (nearest common value).

Don't know what the hfe for a BC817 is, but you might need to reduce the 5k base resistors to get enough collector current.
 
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moxhamj

New Member
Beaniebots explains it - there are two sorts of latching relays - single coil (which need a H bridge) or dual coil (which uses two transistors).

I have used a dual coil relay DS4E-SL2-DC5V - available from www.rockby.com.au (search for latching) and probably lots of other places - it is even in the standard library for Eagle PCB. But only good for 2 amps.

The point of a latching relay is to conserve power, but if you are switching 13 amps then you would have to have a quite unusual duty cycle. If the relay is 'on' then it is presumably passing 13 amps so the current draw of the coil becomes rather insignificant in the big scheme of things. And if it is 'off' most of the time, well the coil isn't drawing power so the advantage of a latching relay is lost.

What is the application?
 

ciseco

Senior Member
Hiya,

Its for a general purpose wireless switch just like you get X10 devices. Here in the UK a standard socket is 13A so thats the defining point, it might have a TV, video etc only drawing the odd amp or maybe a 3 bar fire drawing 10+. Going for a 16A relay makes it universal. By using bistables it also makes it suitable for battery driven applications.

Cheers

Miles
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hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Its for a general purpose wireless switch just like you get X10 devices ... Going for a 16A relay makes it universal. By using bistables it also makes it suitable for battery driven applications.
It seems rather odd to want to use a battery powered device which controls mains, but conversely it's far safer to build and get right and what this forum would probably recommend for someone not experienced with mains.

For Suitably Qualified Engineers only, this would be a typical case where direct to mains ( no transformer ) power supply could be suited.

In these days of 'Green Issues', I suppose continually drawing 1W5 when the relay is powered is an issue, although insignificant to what it controls. That could perhaps be better mitigated by using a relay which draws less current.

I would have thought that a non-bistable solution would be preferable and safer when switching mains. In the case of mains failure it would be better if the unit turned off power and did not reconnect it until explicitly told to. If it's controlling an electric bar fire when the lights go out, that could be knocked over in the hunt for candles, and you don't want to have it burning the house down when power comes back on. If everything were controlled by such switches, there'd be quite an in-rush current on the rings as things all get turned back on as mains is restored.

Plus every second delay in turning something on is anther cost saving to yourself :)

Now imagine those bye bye standbye and X10 devices that I have on my TV, lights etc, in a normal 6 hours of evening watching I could perform the same function for 44 years. By replacing just what I have it'd be worth nearly 3 days of electric over the year, I'm already using only 40% of what I did two years ago, squeezing the sponge is getting ever more difficult :)
The real question is whether saving 3 days of electricity per year is really much, effective, or even true.

If the standby system draws 100mA, that's 0W5 at 5V, using 0.0005kWh, at 20p per kWh it's 0.88 GBP per year if it were powered 24/7.

I'm guessing that it's going to cost far more than 0.88 GBP to build each unit so it would take some years to recuperate the costs, and until then your total costs will be higher than the eventual saving. With soaring energy costs, that time will of course reduce.

Actual savings will depend on current used ( or 'wasted' ) and how energy prices do change, but I am one of those who don't consider such minuscule 'standby' savings to be that effective unless already incorporated in a system design. Neither saving personal costs nor saving the planet - Don't forget all the hidden costs and carbon footprint of what's being used to achieve the end savings.

When my front room bulb expired I didn't replace it for three days and watched TV and lived in the dark. Through the con of carbon offsetting I can now use standby for many years to come and I achieved far higher cost savings than adding energy saving devices would have.
 
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BCJKiwi

Senior Member
Alternatively you could use a 110 or 230VAC SSR controlled directly from the PICAXE output.

Units like the Crydom EZ24018 (and all the copies) handle 110 thru 240V AC, zero crossover and turn off at 1VDC and on at 3VDC with a 15mA input (300 Ohms).

The 15mA would be drawn all the time the SSR was on but this is a relatively small current.
There is also a 0.1mA leakage when off.

For example, Futurlec have a 10A version at US$9.90 and a 25A version at US$14.90
 
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ciseco

Senior Member
Hi hippy, with it being battery powered, I wasnt thinking of it being used for mains more as a generic building block. I've got quite a bit that runs off my solar/wind system so being able to switch DC with an identical bit of kit seems sensible to build a truely universal wireless switch.

I see your point about safety though, I was just trying to illustrate why more than 2A might be useful. The relay mentioned in the previous post will do 30v at 2A but only 0.5 @ 125VAC so isnt suitable for much thats mains related anyway.

And yes looking at green issues, powering a relay continuously is simply a waste, albeit a small one percentage wise at 13A, but if you look at say a central heating pump that could be on for half a day at 60-90w, throwing away say 0.5w an hour + the inefficent psu needed etc to power it all, it's all just a waste. 1% here and there soon equates to the 2012 20% reduction the govenment claims we will make (not gonna happen). There's 22 million house holds in the uk, I'd love for each one of them to give me the annual ? value of just one relay on for half a day, I'd be an instant millionaire :)

I've reduced my electricity consumption by 60% over the last two years. I estimate that if I can control everything automatically in the most efficient way I might be able to squeeze a final 10% out, then my solar panels, wind turbine and lister CS can easily pick up the rest and it's bye bye to ever having a bill again :)

I started this when my bills were over ?800 a year, if you add on NI and TAX I needed to earn about ?1100 to stand still, thats not including the recent 25% hike in energy costs. I live in a 200 year old 3 bedroom cottage, am no eco warrior or anything, me on my own I'm not to going save the planet, I just hate handing cash over to the Taxman and the energy companies. But if I can do it anyone can, then and only then will we be able to make an environmental impact, do you agree?

Cheers

Miles
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ciseco

Senior Member
Hi BCJ,

I've already got some kit running with SSR's, they dont fit the bill for battery power or DC use :(

Cheers

Miles
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ciseco

Senior Member
"but I am one of those who don't consider such minuscule 'standby' savings to be that effective unless already incorporated in a system design"


sooooo true, which is why "shouldnt I" do it this way to start with :)

100ma at 5v add on the loss of the transformer, voltage reg etc lets say 1w, 6 hours a day is 2.2kwh anually times the 10 devices, thats 22Kwh, I only use 6kwh a day now so thats 3.66 days or nearly ?4, that ?4 might be ?5 next year (last 2 years have seen 25% rises), then ?6.25, ?7.81, ?9.76 (at my current 18p per kwh)

Over just 5 years thats ?32 just on powering 10 relays that serve no purpose than on/off, thats more than they would cost extra to do this way, so there is no economic reason not to in my mind

You dont seem to be one thats convinced by all the carbon talk, I'm not too, but all those naysayers who 2 years ago lambasted me for wasting money on solar panels not paying me back in 20 years, I get such a sense of glee when I remind them that now energy has gone up it's more like ten years, if it continues AND IT WILL I'll be easliy into single figures.

The saving maybe small but I think it's worth the extra little effort, I hope you agree :)

Cheers

Miles
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hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
@ MIles : I'm with you all the way in principle. If everyone could cut their power usage 60% that's the way to go.

I'm less convinced by the diminishing returns which come as usage reduces, and sceptical of 'planet saving' when every jet taking off may require millions of people to make small savings. Why not just stop one plane taking off a year and do nothing ourselves ? Okay it's not that simplistic, but in some ways it is. It's silly to me to be trying to save the world by doing multiple 'insignificant things' when one significant thing would deliver much greater savings.

I upset some Greens / Transport 2000 types because of my argument against calls to ban cars; if it's pollution, make cars pollution free, keep the cars ! Everyone's happy. Unfortunately that often reveals their true motivation that they simply don't like cars and their pollution arguments are actually just pretexts.

Many local authorities collect recyclables but demand we sort them, clean them, use who knows how many different coloured bins and say "we must all do our bit". Why ? Why can we not just throw everything in a box as we always have done and have centralised services sort the refuse in the most cost-effective manner with all the benefits of scale ? They can do recycling sorting to the Nth degree which individuals at home cannot or will not - Ever tried dismantling an orange carton (tetra pack ) ?

If we want proper recycling, do it properly, not this band-aid bodge of "individual responsibility" which will provably never be as effective as doing it properly. Same applies to other environmental issues IMO.

If you can do the cost benefit maths and it comes out okay I say go for it, but a lot of the savings aren't met. Take wind turbines. Most sold now have a lifetime of a few years, cost so much and deliver so much. If the savings don't outweigh the cost then it's a pointless exercise.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but from my perspective we're going about it in the wrong way, and until we do it the right way, any gains will be entirely insignificant and have no effect. And boy, do we need to do it the right way or we will be well and truly screwed.
 

papaof2

Senior Member
"Many local authorities collect recyclables but demand we sort them, clean them, use who knows how many different coloured bins and say "we must all do our bit". Why ? Why can we not just throw everything in a box as we always have done and have centralised services sort the refuse in the most cost-effective manner with all the benefits of scale ? They can do recycling sorting to the Nth degree which individuals at home cannot or will not"

Local recycling went to "single stream" a couple of years ago and they no longer accept glass of any kind because "Our people might get cut by broken glass" - but the same companies pick up the glass in the trash. They don't accept glass in recyling because the "single stream" processing equipment can't (yet) separate it out.

John
 

ciseco

Senior Member
I agree, theres not much as an individual I can do to effect the bigger things directly, from experience though when people start to think they tend not to stop, it's getting the bu66ers to start thinking in the first place.

Like if you gave the average jo the tools to save 30-40%, 22 million uk households equates to savings over ?6bn annually and a great part of that 20% the government is looking for

I'm with you on wind turbines, unless you get them high they are very poor converters of energy in turbulent air, I have however built some snazzy gizmo that eeeks out nearly every drop of mine which makes it better but still no where near as good as the solar panels. The CHP waste oil burner built on a lister CS can generate 3Kw of electricity and 9Kw of heat, the day is coming when I'll no longer be a powergen customer :)
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Dippy

Moderator
Well I'm all for Power Saving. It makes sense at a local level (my wallet) and at a global level.

I'm all for recycling too, where practical. And I agree our recycling method is a bit silly. My only experience is Purbeck District Council who, I suppose like all District/County Councils in UK have a budget and ever increasing waste land-fill charges.
So (in the UK) the recycling bins/lorries are there for 2 main purposes; to please the Council Accountants and clear the consciences of the superficially green Snivvel, sorry, Civil Servants. Oh, I nearly forgot, and to recycle usable materials in an environmentally sustainable * way.
(Green politicians trying to be whiter than white, ha!)

I'm also all for buying local produce. That's fine for cabbages, but sadly electronics manufacturers think otherwise. Apparently I want the cheapest chod available.

In our 'green' bins, surprisingly not made in China, we can only return paper, glass and cans. No cardboard or plastic bottles. However, the council send (at taxpayers expense) a newspaper to all householders telling us to drive to the local centre to dispose of our plastic bottles and trimmings from food preparation. Stuff that, it's 7 miles away.

That reminds me, they haven't told me where to safely dispose of all those cheap CFLs that only last 6 months.... never mind there should be another shipload coming over soon.

And another thing, car Tax discs ... aaargh, what a pointless ripoff, that's another story for Brits.

*Remember kids, the more times you can squeeze 'sustainable' into a sentence , the more environmentally aware you are, and the more likely you are to get a grant or planning permission.

PS. I'm not sure (as in I really don't believe the experts) on the economics of many wind turbine installations. I've seen many,many examples of failure. Where can I find the facts? (written by a non-green-obsessed author that is). I genuinely would like to know more about them and the costs. I only ask this as many people are considering electric solar panels and forget that they will have to change their (more and more often imported Chinese made) batteries every few years. *Don't believe me, ask the tech man at Rapid.
 
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hippy

Ex-Staff (retired)
Like if you gave the average jo the tools to save 30-40%, 22 million uk households equates to savings over £6bn annually and a great part of that 20% the government is looking for
£6bn - is that all ? Hardly seems worth it when they throw that kind of money away on "wars people don't want", "Olympics people aren't interested in", and spend ten times that to bale out a single private company too incompetent to run its business properly.

If we all trimmed 40% off the cost of our energy, the suppliers would simply increase costs to make up the shortfall on the rest. What's worth saving a few quid when we will have it taken some other way ?

I'm not getting at you, but with that as the backdrop to Britain today it's why there's little enthusiasm from the man on the Clapham Omnibus for anything other than work, sleep and to wash his hands of the rest.

Until central and local government gets its act together promoting alternative energies, solar heating, helps make them affordable and easy to install without ridiculous and costly planning processes it will all be second-rate and a bit of a hodge-podge. Fine words mean nothing, and little has translated into action except from those willing and able to go DIY and take it upon themselves. Full marks for doing so.

Don't get me wrong; I'm all in favour, just that it ain't working like it should. We need major mindset and societal changes ( benefits, not sacrifices ) and its not happening. There's the will at the grass-roots but the obstacles come from the top.
 

ciseco

Senior Member
funny, i contracted for the local government association last year, hopeless would be kind, dont expect much from government organisations you have to act yourself, just a bunch of disaffected individuals ran by the latest silly initiative putting a gloss on things time final pension arrives, all in all nice people but not effective in any way :)

As I hope I've demonstrated at my wallet level I can make a huge change, I just need a few more people to see it was actually easy, then a few more etc etc.

Dont rely on government to assist much, they are still wondering what to do with smart metering, what we actually need is smart control, things that maximise themselves and not rely on human behavioral change, if you've ever tried to beat the fuel economy on a car with cruise, it's very difficult without coasting and drafting lorries :)

Anyway we digress, anyone got a circuit other than an H bridge for driving this here relay?? LOL :)

Miles
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moxhamj

New Member
I'm all for energy savings so forgive me for a bit of a rant, then I'll get back to the electronics. To really focus the mind on where to save energy, consider running a house on solar/wind. It is a great hypothetical to work through (especially with input from people who are actually doing it). Suddenly wall warts drawing power all the time have to go. Automatic systems that turn off devices at power points are worth building. It is even worth looking at some of the dumb things we all do, like taking a house where the outside temperature is 4C, using energy to heat it up inside to 23C then putting a fridge in the middle of that heated house and using energy to cool the inside of that fridge down to 4C!

But the bigger stuff is harder to do and the small stuff like wall warts is easier, and may indeed be a bigger market for anyone trying to make a $.

Ok, we have a battery powered latching relay. If there is one coil there is no other solution than an H bridge. The coil only draws power when the relay changes so the current draw is negligable. I'm presuming you want to use the relay you have, and this does narrow down the options. I think the problem now becomes - how to build an H bridge that can run on batteries. Picaxes can run on microamps but a L293 running all the time will flatten a battery fairly quickly.

There is an H bridge circuit using 4 transistors, then another two switching transistors between the bases with 10R resistors on the collectors and 2k7's onto their bases. Bad description I know but people who have seen this circuit know what it is. What I don't know is whether it draws any leakage current out of the driver transistors' bases. If not, this could be an option.

A picaxe can power up other circuits to do the switching. Say it was running off 8V of batteries with a low quiescent 5V reg. Drive a 547, then a 557 to make a switchable 8V or 5V supply. This can drive the L293 or a transistor H bridge, kick the relay over with 1/2 a second of current, then the whole drive circuit turns off.

There are hybrid relay solutions. Use a picaxe to switch a very tiny reed relay (with or without a transistor, depends on the coil resistance), then use that to drive a L293 H bridge so you can have the picaxe sleeping most of the time, turn on the power to the L293, flip the latching relay then turn it all off. This could be fairly simple - one tiny reed relay, one L293 and two back emf diodes.

There are also relay to relay solutions. Use a picaxe to drive a reed relay (it might even be able to drive it without a transistor). If it is a DPDT relay this can become the H bridge that switches the polarity of the coil of the main relay. Use a SPDT relay to then apply current to the coil. Three relays and defiintely no quiescent current when off.

There are also non latching relay solutions. Say you are happy to have a small transformer running off the mains in the solution, but you want it off most of the time. Use the transformer to charge the batteries. When they are charged, use the picaxe to turn off the mains supply to the transformer (small latching relays like the one I mentioned earlier would be perfect for this). Measure the batteries with the picaxe and when they are getting flat, recharge them. The recharges might be only once a month for a few hours. Now there is enough grunt to run the coil of a big relay (non latching) if needed.

Personally, I think if one is using batteries the cost of these needs to be included in any cost equations that look at quiescent current draws. I pondered this some years ago and concluded that the best solution was to accept that one transformer uses less power than lots of transformers, so I have one 24VAC transformer on all the time, and that has hundreds of metres of cable running all over the place that power lots of devices. Some of these are wired and some are wireless and I'm moving more over to wireless. Mains controlling devices don't have a generic controller, but rather have relays sized for each application. So a 90W pump will have a much smaller relay than a 2400W heater.

I can think of even more brainstorming ideas. It would help to know even more about the application - eg how does it fail if the power goes off and it latches in a random on or off state and then the power comes back on? How does it fail if the batteries go flat? How mission critical is it?

Just as an aside, I have been building a lot of battery powered picaxe circuits where the picaxe needs to measure volts accurately, so it needs a regulated supply. Standard 78L05 regs draw too much power, but there is a nifty alternative the LP2950 which only draws 0.075mA. Available for only 50c from stores on ebay - international www.ebay.com then search for LP2950. I've been getting them from a store called west florida components and shipping to Australia is taking well under a week.
 
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Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Doc,

As you pointed out the 78L05 is really power hungry old technology, but is ingrained in most published circuits. There are many newer devicees that only "sip" current. the 2950is a great choice.

A 1 ufd capacitor is reccommended on the output side.

Link to datasheet http://cache.national.com/ds/LP/LP2950.pdf

Myc
 
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