08M2 Program Download Problem

[DDJ2011]

Hi,

I didn’t think I would be back this quickly!

Many thanks to everyone who helped before, I was successful in programming the chip to do the simple LED flashing program.

Based on advice / comments / photos from my previous help request I re-built my programming circuit (breadboard) to make it tidier and easier to follow as good practice for more complex circuits, however I now find that again I cannot load a program to the chip.

*** Please note that I was able to download a program to this chip previously ***

My setup is:
* A Windows 7, 64 bit laptop
* An AXE027 USB cable
* An AXE029 Breadboard Cable Adapter
* 08M2 chip
* Breadboard construction
* PE v5.4.2
* I am using 3AA batteries to power the circuit

New annotated circuit photo attached:

Diagnostics carried out so far:
* The laptop recognises the cable;
* I do not see the “Hello” message when I run the terminal at 4800;
* When I do the loopback test with a paperclip the terminal window reflects the text I type in;
* A hard reset hasn’t helped;
* I am getting 4.7v at the chip itself (pins 1-8);
* When I do the USB port test I get 0v / 3v with the led off/on;
* While trying to download to the chip I measure 3v at pin 2 (Serial In) and 0v when no download running;
* In my previous post I had the connectors from pins 2 and 3 of the AXE029 board reversed – this time they are correct. The jumper is at the left hand side, pin 1 goes to ground, pin 2 goes to serial out and pin 3 to serial in. The photo shows this as well.

I am stumped again I’m afraid - what is the next thing to check for?

Any help gratefully received.

Jason

 

[Technical]

Have you done a hard-reset - see manual part 1?

 

[Armp]

At least try a capacitor between pins 1 and 8 as suggested in the earlier thread....

 

[nick12ab]

Add a decoupling capacitor.

 

[hippy]

* I am getting 4.7v at the chip itself (pins 1-8);
* When I do the USB port test I get 0v / 3v with the led off/on;
* While trying to download to the chip I measure 3v at pin 2 (Serial In) and 0v when no download running;

Reading 3V on the serial in pin is a little low, but then 4.7V is a little high for battery reading as well. Two things worth trying -

1) Try new batteries. They can read as okay but not have much oomph in them.

2) Try taking one of the batteries out ( so 2 x AA = 3V for power ) linking across where the battery was with a croc-clip or wire.

PS: Good job with the new layout. Looks okay with a quick glance but might be worth jiggling the wires to make sure you've got good contact.

 

[MartinM57]

* I do not see the “Hello” message when I run the terminal at 4800;

If you have successfully downloaded a program, then unless it says "Hello" like a virgin 08M2, then you will never see that message again.

 

[DDJ2011]

Thanks for the input so far.

* I now have 100nF cap across pins 1 and 8.
* I have tried 3 new AA batteries, and also the 2 battery suggestion.
* Wires jiggled.

No change - I still cannot download a program.

My next step - unless someone suggests something else - is to build a new circuit, on a new breadboard using new components and then test that. I will have that done tomorrow. I only have the one chip at the moment so I can't swap that out.

Are there any tests I can do on the chip itself - without using the PE - that might give some indication of whether it is working or not?

I have to say this is very frustrating - I am keen to get on and build a real circuit that does something, but I can't even get the blasted thing programmed! Still, try, try and try again!

 

[MartinM57]

If you take the PICAXE out of the board and do the serial test, what voltage do you get at the SERIN pin (stick a jumper - a wire one, not a real one - down the SERIN pin hole on the board). If it's not close to the +V pin battery voltage then you have another (probably) simple problem.

 

[SAborn]

How about you take a nice clear detail photo of both sides of the download adaptor board, as that is about all there is in your circuit, so there might be a fault there we have not seen yet.

 

[DDJ2011]

Here are the best quality photos of the download board I can get, given my current camera. I've loaded a few of the bottom of the board in the hopes that between them they show the detail you need.

(6 photos over 3 posts)

I have also re-built the programming circuit on another breadboard but it still doesn't work. It looks like being either the download board, or the chip itself, given that my laptop recognises the cable and I have latest versions of the PE and drivers. But then, what do I know???

All help and advice gratefully received.

Photos 1 and 2:

 

[DDJ2011]

Photos 3 and 4:

 

[DDJ2011]

Photos 5 and 6:

 

[Goeytex]

Why are you running the Positive supply all the way across the board to a negative rail (black line) and then back
to the Picaxe ? Suggest you take the 2 long red wires out, Then connect a short lead from the Red Terminal to
the V2 rail (red line) then from V2 rail to the Picaxe V+ Pin.

You soldering job is not too good. I would suggest you heat the iron up and reflow all the joints. Put enough
pressure on the pads so that the solder flows and covers the pads and looks shiny when done.It doesn't look like
your iron was hot enough the first time, or you didn't put any pressure on pad with iron, didn't keep heat applied
long enough for the solder to flow very well. You don't want blobs of solder sitting on top the the pads you want
the solder to "become one" with the pad and the component leg/pin.

Use some alcohol or flux cleaner to remove the excess flux from the board so you can see the solder work better.

It wouldn't hurt to solder the pads on the top of the board where the resistor leads go through.

 

[DDJ2011]

Thanks for your comments Goeytex.

I guess your issue with the +V wires is connections? In which case I will go straight from the red terminal to pin 1 on the picaxe - reduces connections by one.

I will also re-solder all of the joints in the morning.

 

[SAborn]

One tip i would give is to get an old toothbrush and some Metho and give the solder side of the board a scrub off and remove all the resin from the board so you can see the joints clearly as there might be a fine little solder bridge hiding under the resin.

Also as Goey pointed out some of your soldering is not looking the best, and from what i can see you might want to check these for starters.

 

[Goeytex]

Looks like you have RX and TX backwards. As I understand it ... "IN" on the adapter board goes to serOUT on the Picaxe.

And ..IO2 (TX OUT) on the adapter board goes to goes to serIN on the Picaxe.

 

[eclectic]

Looks like you have RX and TX backwards. As I understand it ... "IN" on the adapter board goes to serOUT on the Picaxe.

And ..IO2 (TX OUT) on the adapter board goes to goes to serIN on the Picaxe.

IN does go to Serial In. (leg 2)
O goes to Serial out (leg 7)

e

 

[Goeytex]

That's an odd pin naming convention for an I/O Board, where IN really means OUT ?

The drawing in the 029 manual shows "TX" to be either the Pin next to 0V or the Pin furthest from 0V.
The 029 Manual says TX is the "Output" Connection.

I have never seen an I/O board before where pin named TX is an INPUT
and A pin named RX ( IN) Is an OUTPUT. (So much for clarity & convention).

A first for everything I suppose.

 

[srnet]

Better perhaps to label them A and B and have people refer to a circuit diagram.

 

[DDJ2011]

I've resoldered the board, but don't have flux cleaner - it will take a few days to get some. I found a page here http://gorum.ca/clen-pcb.html which claims that Poly-Clens a paint bruch cleaner can be used. Anyone have any experience of that in the UK?

I'm also going to order another 08 chip to try and program that in case I have inadvertantly fried the first.

Thanks again for your help - I'll post an update when I have one.

 

[eclectic]

I've resoldered the board, but don't have flux cleaner - it will take a few days to get some. I found a page here http://gorum.ca/clen-pcb.html which claims that Poly-Clens a paint bruch cleaner can be used. Anyone have any experience of that in the UK?

I'm also going to order another 08 chip to try and program that in case I have inadvertantly fried the first.

Thanks again for your help - I'll post an update when I have one.

1. After re-soldering, any luck?

2. Poly-clens is a gamble, but. it certainly cleans gunge.

Your call.

e

Addit.
Considering the price, I personally
would buy another AXE029
and then solder it very carefully.

 

[SAborn]

I've resoldered the board, but don't have flux cleaner - it will take a few days to get some

Do you mean to tell me in the UK you dont have Methylated spirits, gee here any super market or hardware store has it, and most households have a bottle in the cupboard.

It is harmless to the pcb and and cleans the resin off, and an old toothbrush works a treat.
I have used it for 20 years and never damaged a circuit yet, and its cheap.

 

[DDJ2011]

@eclectic: No, it didn't work. Per SAborn's suggestion I want to clean the board and see if that sheds any light on it.

@SAborn: dunno. Never tried to buy meths, but it makes no difference as I can't get to any sort of shop for a few days.

I have now ordered a pre-assembled axe049 board as I want to get some programming and testing done - I don't need the 18M chip really, but it will at least let me get started on my actual project. I will work on my soldering skills in the meantime before I have to assemble the final thing! Another axe029 isn't a bad idea either.

 

[DDJ2011]

I had to call RevEd about my order - it had been missed. Hopefully will be here tomorrow or Saturday.

Had a thought though. I have an old (3 yrs) Samsung Netbook running XP. Is it worth me loading the drivers and PE onto that and then try again to program my 08 chip?

Might be worth a shot, no?

 

[mrburnette]

Might be worth a shot, no?

If the XP notebook has a DB9 serial port then trying with COM1 and PE to see if you can get the firmware version ... this is about as simple as it gets... only OS, PE, and COM1 and the PICAXE'and battery, of course. No USB, no drivers, etc.

- Ray

 

[nick12ab]

Relevant to the problem: To rule out the AXE029, what happens if you just stick some wires into the breadboard, fit the pull-down resistor on the board (but not the other one) amd try and download?
[hr][/hr]
Not relevant to the problem but...

If the XP notebook has a DB9 serial port

According to Wikipedia, netbooks never have serial ports.

Netbooks are a category of small, lightweight, legacy-free, and inexpensive laptop computers

A legacy-free PC is a type of personal computer that lacks a floppy drive, legacy ports, an ISA bus (or sometimes, any internal expansion bus at all). According to Microsoft[1], "The basic goal for these requirements is that the operating system, devices, and end users cannot detect the presence of the following: ISA slots or devices; legacy floppy disk controller (FDC); and PS/2, serial, parallel, and game ports." A USB adaptor may be used if an older device must be connected to a PC lacking these ports

 

[hippy]

If the XP notebook has a DB9 serial port

According to Wikipedia, netbooks never have serial ports.

But then a notebook isn't a netbook ;-)

The fun really starts if you do find something described as a netbook with a DB9 serial port. Does that make Wikipedia's definition of netbook wrong, or is the device you found not actually a netbook. I'm sure people could argue over that and never come to any definitive agreement.

 

[DDJ2011]

Nick, which is the pull down resistor? I know it's a stupid question but I am really new to this stuff...

Relevant to the problem: To rule out the AXE029, what happens if you just stick some wires into the breadboard, fit the pull-down resistor on the board (but not the other one) amd try and download?

I presume you mean stick some wires into the breadboard where the axe029 would sit (so that they make the relevant connections) then directly connect these to the relevant parts of the plug at the end of the cable?

Thanks for the suggestions - will try them out.

 

[nick12ab]

But then a notebook isn't a netbook ;-)

DDJ2011 specified a "netbook".

Nick, which is the pull down resistor? I know it's a stupid question but I am really new to this stuff...

The pull-down resistor is the 10k resistor that connects to ground. The "other" resistor is the 22k one.

I presume you mean stick some wires into the breadboard where the axe029 would sit (so that they make the relevant connections) then directly connect these to the relevant parts of the plug at the end of the cable?

That is correct.

These are the pin connections:

Remove the 22k for the test.

If this doesn't work, try increasing the value of the 10k resistor or using a new download socket if you have one spare (not one ripped from the AXE029, you might damage it during removal.

 

[Armp]

Remove the 22k for the test.

I'm not in favour of removing the 22K at this point.

Can you do the LED test again before making any changes? I'd like to see the voltage at each end of the 22K - that may indicate if the chip has been zapped.

 

[Paix]

Do you mean to tell me in the UK you dont have Methylated spirits, gee here any super market or hardware store has it, and most households have a bottle in the cupboard.
I have used it for 20 years and never damaged a circuit yet, and its cheap.

@SAborn, Same in the UK, but probably not as common in most households as it used to be 30 years ago.
People buy cheap paint brushes and throw them away instead of cleaning them. They just wear the clothes complete with the odd paint splash

 

[SAborn]

Thanks Paix,

Although its a poor paint thinner (actually it wont work) more used for window cleaning and small burners, removing marker pen ink, sticky labels etc, and most important in my workshop "cleaning circuit boards"

I can not keep wondering if the download problem is caused by a faulty cable as appears to be the problem from a few other threads, it looks as if a batch of suspect cables has been supplied to Rev_ed, ones guessing good old Chinese quality control being the cause.

 

[Armp]

I can not keep wondering if the download problem is caused by a faulty cable as appears to be the problem from a few other threads, it looks as if a batch of suspect cables has been supplied to Rev_ed, ones guessing good old Chinese quality control being the cause.

That's why I asked for the readings on each side of the 22K. If the 10k/22k node is not pretty close to 4.2v then either the cable is bad or possibly the USB port. I had an unpowered USB 'hub' that won't supply anywhere near the USB 100mA spec.

Conversely if the node is ~4.2v, and 'serial in' is down around 3v, as previously mentioned, then the picaxe is probably fried.

Reasonable?

 

[DDJ2011]

Oh, Mister Postman, look and see
(Oh yeah)
If there's a letter in your bag for me​

There is! I am now the proud owner of a pre-assembled AXE049 tutorial board (18M2 chip) plus a spare 08M2.

Hopefully now I will be able to get the bottom of the problems I have been having with programming via my self assembled AXE029 breadboard adaptor.

Steps:
1. Try and program new 08M2 via the AXE029 (I did manage to program the old one once)
2. Try and program the 18M2 on the AXE049 board.
3. Either ecstatic or angry despair

Will report back later.

 

[Armp]

Can I suggest you do the voltage tests first? Prudent to make sure the AXE027 is good before proceeding...

 

[srnet]

Meths is not a lot of use for brush cleaning, or glue for that matter. Use white spirit or paraffin.

Meths is easy to find in DIY and Camping stores, its still very popular for Trangia stoves and similar.

A better cleaner is acetone, find it as nail varnish remover in the nail varnish part of a supermaket. Its supposed to have small amounts of lanolin added, but now so much that you notice.

 

[Armp]

Steps:
1. Try and program new 08M2 via the AXE029 (I did manage to program the old one once)
2. Try and program the 18M2 on the AXE049 board.
3. Either ecstatic or angry despair

Will report back later.

Just curious - did you do step 1?

 

[Dippy]

Acetone is very vigorous and will attack many plastics. Its very fumy, very flammable and not good for the skin. But it cleans a helluva lot of things.
A gentler solution is IPA. Not as powerful but a lot safer. You can even clean your safety specs with it.
And there are many (somewhat expensive) specific cleaners for specific tasks.
I like Fluxoff.

 

[srnet]

Acetone is very vigorous and will attack many plastics. Its very fumy, very flammable and not good for the skin

Strange its sold for use on the hands ..............

But what would I know, I dont recall when I last used nail varnish.

Of course with any solvent be it supposadly safe ones or not, you test it on a small area first, dont you ?

 

[DDJ2011]

@Armp - sorry, not had a chance to do anything this weekend on my 08M2 problem. Am hoping to get this done during the week. Maybe.