Why AXE027?

[tarantulataramasalata]

Hi, can someone please tell me why we can't:

a. write a program in a webpage
b. download it to a picaxe using my phone's micro usb cable
c. from any USB port
d. from any PC (ie no software installation)
e. from my smartphone?

Thanks

 

[JimPerry]

a. can be done if saved as a text file
b. needs compiling first
c. need to know which port for download software
d. needs the compiler to work
e. see above

The Program Editor uses a compiler to convert text to the correct Picaxe instructions -- available for PC (Windows, Mac and Linux) - No chance for Smartphones

 

[tmfkam]

The reasons why 'you can't...' is down to the decisions Revolution Education took when developing the original concept into the PicAxe you buy today.

If those are the criteria you have then, sadly, the PicAxe isn't the correct processor for you.

Off the top of my head I don't know of any microcontroller that could meet your expectations.

Edit: As pointed out by SteveSmythe, the BBC Micro:bit does have these capabilities. It appears (as far as I can tell) to have everthing you ask for.

Remember that Revolution Education make no money from the software development that goes into the programming editors, only by selling the processors. As the costs of writing the programming software are not inconsiderable (the BBC had a lot of help from companies hoping to sell processors in the future to Micro:bit developers), I imagine they don't consider it worthwhile to add the features you ask for.

 

[hippy]

Creating and compiling PICAXE programs using an on-line web page is possible using the PICAXE Cloud -

www.picaxecloud.com

That is primarily for Blockly programming, but if you switch to 'code' mode standard Basic programs can be entered, syntax checked and compiled.

Programs cannot be directly downloaded from the browser but compiled programs can be saved as .AXE files which can later be downloaded into a PICAXE chip.

www.picaxe.com/Software/PICAXE/Blockly-for-PICAXE

www.picaxe.com/Software/Drivers/PICAXE-Programmer-App

 

[stevesmythe]

Off the top of my head I don't know of any microcontroller that could meet your expectations.

The BBC micro:bit meets those specifications, although it has many limitations, and it was only possible thanks to huge voluntary investments from Microsoft, Samsung and many others.

 

[tarantulataramasalata]

Hi All, thanks for the responses!

Indeed - the Microbit was the prompt for my original post. Its easy accessibilty is essential for engaging kids (I am employed as a teacher), but the Picaxe remains behind a wall of inaccessibility via installing programs and special leads.

Now please forgive my ignorance, but as I understand it code is code is code. The picaxe cloud is certainly a good start, but how can we simplify AXE027 and installed drivers? Would it not be better to make the chip more easily programmable and recoup development cost from the chip sale? (Imagine soldering a male micro USB onto a pcb that will plug directly into your phone!)

 

[westaust55]

Unfortunately for you, code is not code is not code.

The initial program development typed as text may be in BASIC, C, assembler or some other language.
This program can then be complied as a hex file as machine code or as a tokenised "program".
The hex file when installed in a micro informer is the native language and runs directly.
A tokenised program uses a pre-installed interpreter to further decode the tokens and call subroutines having assembler/machine code routine with many instruction to perform each tokenised command.

PICAXE and some other micro controllers are preprogrammed with an interpreter and you program is downloaded as a tokenised program.

 

[Technical]

to make the chip more easily programmable and recoup development cost from the chip sale? (Imagine soldering a male micro USB onto a pcb that will plug directly into your phone!)

1) Many phones can only act as a USB slave, not a USB master, so that simply won't work in many cases.

2) To make a chip 'more accessible' you need to make it USB and bluetooth compatible, which adds cost. Microbits are 10.50 + VAT each, a typical school project (e.g. AXE101) can be built in volume (PCB, PICAXE, components) for around 1.50 + VAT.

So for 250 students in a year group that is £375 as opposed to £2625. Which is 'more accessible' to the school budget?

 

[oracacle]

in a lot of cases with smartphones, and even tablets, they are unable to be the host of USB devices due to them not having USB host controllers - they are designed as slaves to a proper computer. this fact is often over looked and it why you will find that DSLRs can be controlled over wireless or the headphone jack and not the phones USB jack

 

[grim_reaper]

... but the Picaxe remains behind a wall of inaccessibility via installing programs and special leads.

Personally, installing a programming tool and using a special lead (which in this case is a USB to serial converter) is very, very simple! I think you're at risk of missing the point of education if you simplify it any further than that!
I found that my kids [at home, I'm not a teacher] are a lot more engaged when something goes wrong and needs a meter/scope, debugging or addition of LEDs on the breadboard to see what's going on. When I showed my daughter how to program a PICAXE with the standard flashing LED 'hello world' program, her response was along the lines of "that's dull, what else does it do?". Now two years later (after she basically refused to come into my workshop for a year!) she's learned how to use a multimeter, oscilloscope and many other electronics tools in order to help me debug complex serial comms over metres of cables. Maybe she's a unique case; but I'm sure any enquiring mind prefers a challenge to learn from rather than the current expectation of plug-it-in and go back to watching cartoons...!

 

[tarantulataramasalata]

Unfortunately for you, code is not code is not code.

The initial program development typed as text may be in BASIC, C, assembler or some other language.
This program can then be complied as a hex file as machine code or as a tokenised "program".
The hex file when installed in a micro informer is the native language and runs directly.
A tokenised program uses a pre-installed interpreter to further decode the tokens and call subroutines having assembler/machine code routine with many instruction to perform each tokenised command.

PICAXE and some other micro controllers are preprogrammed with an interpreter and you program is downloaded as a tokenised program.

Thanks for the response.

I appreciate that there are many different computer languages: and I am sure that others have thought of this, I am just asking for help understanding. Why can't a browser (blockly) ouput language that the picaxe will run directly?

Thanks

 

[tarantulataramasalata]

1) Many phones can only act as a USB slave, not a USB master, so that simply won't work in many cases.

2) To make a chip 'more accessible' you need to make it USB and bluetooth compatible, which adds cost. Microbits are 10.50 + VAT each, a typical school project (e.g. AXE101) can be built in volume (PCB, PICAXE, components) for around 1.50 + VAT.

So for 250 students in a year group that is £375 as opposed to £2625. Which is 'more accessible' to the school budget?

Thanks for the response, and you are right - that AXE101 project looks very interesting!

I appreciate that the 'wall of inaccessability' term is rather drastic, but the current download options do limit students' options to reprogram their project to using school machines.

OK - so phones are slave only. I wish I knew more about all this

 

[hippy]

Why can't a browser (blockly) ouput language that the picaxe will run directly?

Blockly can and does output 'object code' / 'tokenised code' which the PICAXE can execute once downloaded into the chip. That code is embedded in the .AXE file which is saved from the PICAXE Cloud after a successful compilation.

What a browser won't allow is anything running on-line from an Internet site to have access to the hardware of the device it is running on because that is a major security risk. It is therefore not possible to have a "Download" button on an on-line web page which can compile a program and download straight to the chip as is done with desktop apps like PE6 and AXEpad.

This means it has to be a two-stage process; the on-line site can save a file with the code in it to the device the browser is running on. That saved file then has to then be downloaded to the chip. That's how PICAXE Cloud works and also how micro:bit and other online hosted development environments work -

 On-Line Site    Local Device : PC, Tablet, Phone        External Hardware
                .--------------------------------.
  "The Web"     |  Browser  |     Desktop        |
                |           |   Home Screen      |
                |           |                   .-.
.----------.    |   .--.    |  .------------.   |U|   .--------.   .--------.
| Compiler |<---|---|  |    |  | Downloader |-->|S|-->| AXE027 |-->| PICAXE |
`----------'    |   `--'    |  `------------'   |B|   `--------'   `--------'
     |          | Web Page  |       /|\         `-'
     |          |           |        |           |
     |          |           |--------|-----------|
    \|/         |           |        |           |
   .---.        |           |      .---.         |
   |   |------->|-- SAVE -->|----->|   |         |
   `---'        |           |      `---'         |
 Code file      |           |   Disk / SD Card   |
                `--------------------------------'

 

[srnet]

I appreciate that the 'wall of inaccessability' term is rather drastic, but the current download options do limit students' options to reprogram their project to using school machines.

Basic PICAXEs are £1.50 each and you can do lots of really useful stuff with them.

There is no direct way of going from a browser to a PICAXE, there has to be a bit of hardware in the middle.

As Technical mentioned what you propose is potentailly possible, if say PICAXEs had direct USB connectivity.

So, how much extra would you be prepared to pay for each PICAXE if it had the capability ?

 

[Hemi345]

I haven't tried it yet, but there's a PICAXE Programmer in the Chrome Browser Apps that looks like it will take an .axe file and program the PICAXE. It installed very quickly and is probably compatible with any USB to serial converter (like the cheap Prolific PL2303) in addition to RevEd's AXE027. If it works, I don't see how it could get any easier than that.

 

[erco]

Pretty cool, Hemi345! Looks like a 2-step process. More info at http://www.picaxe.com/Software/Drivers/PICAXE-Programmer-App/