Picaxe rival

[kam]

Hi All,

I was just searching on the www and found a micro company called Basic Micro:

http://www.basicmicro.com

They are selling their micro with pretty much the same instruction set as our PICAXE but with more pins and feathres... i think. It seems like another parallex basic stamp thing... i think it said somewhere its BS2 pin compatible.

I didnt look at the entire thing but i think it has a few extra features like a few extra pins, alot more memory, interrupts, maths capability like sin and cos with extended numbers that the PICAXE wont support. but can be done via the co-processor.

No offence to PICAXE... still my fav. plus the cost for a BASIC ATOM 40 pin chip is ~$70 and the picaxe 40X1 < $30.

Have a look... just trivial.

Kam

 

[leftyretro]

Hi All,

I was just searching on the www and found a micro company called Basic Micro:

http://www.basicmicro.com

They are selling their micro with pretty much the same instruction set as our PICAXE but with more pins and feathres... i think. It seems like another parallex basic stamp thing... i think it said somewhere its BS2 pin compatible.

I didnt look at the entire thing but i think it has a few extra features like a few extra pins, alot more memory, interrupts, maths capability like sin and cos with extended numbers that the PICAXE wont support. but can be done via the co-processor.

No offence to PICAXE... still my fav. plus the cost for a BASIC ATOM 40 pin chip is ~$70 and the picaxe 40X1 < $30.

Have a look... just trivial.

Kam

Actually the chip itself cost is around $20

http://www.basicmicro.com/Product.aspx?productID=31&CategoryID=12

 

[kam]

Actually the chip itself cost is around $20

http://www.basicmicro.com/Product.aspx?productID=31&CategoryID=12

Hmm... i didnt look at that. oh i think i was looking at the stamp module. that has all the basic circuit setup to run this thing...

if put togather by oneself... which i dont think is that hard... then i guess its not such a bad deal after all.

Id like to see some reaction from others on this as well... considering there are people on this forum with a lot more experience than me.

 

[bgrabowski]

The UK education market is notoriously cash-starved and slow to adopt modern technology but has embraced Picaxe, especially the 08M, as the microcontroller of choice. Hobbyists may be able to pick and choose as new systems become available but schools need a product which:
*Is economical
*Is always in stock
*Is well documented
*Is robust (pupil-proof)
*Has no additional software costs
*Has reliable technical support

No other product ticks all the boxes in my opinion.

 

[moxhamj]

I remember looking at these before picaxes came out but they were too expensive. The thing I like about picaxe is the huge range of chips and the ability to port programs up and down the range depending on the application. At the top end of the range the atom chips would be compatible. But their cheapest chip is 10x the price of the cheapest picaxe. Take a project I am working on at the moment - an IO board with 4 RS232 connections, wireless and several analog IO. The complex part is done by an 18X and that probably is a similar price to an atom. But there is a second chip on the board that acts as a watchdog chip and resets the 18X if certain things don't happen. With the picaxe series that can be done with a $4 08M, but with the atom it would need a second $40 chip.

There are some amazing high end microcontroller chips out there - some even have video - but none seem to have a range that goes as cheap as picaxe.

I'll second all the reasons bgrabowski gives.

Hmm - I might even take that further. Name the project (excluding video processing) and I'll bet it can be done faster/cheaper/better with picaxe than with other chips.

 

[Rickharris]

Deleted by RickHarris

 

[Dippy]

I'll 'third' the above reasons.

I would have thought that for newbies/education where economics and ease are the main criteria then PICAXE is unbeatable.

Obviously we can all spend hours nerding through the internet finding 'better' processors but you'd be hard pushed to find a more 'suitable' device for education or simple projects.

If I were a school administrator I would not be buying £20 devices that someone accidentally destroys or some half-wit intentionally destroys.
Basic Atoms, Stamps and other imitators have been around for yonks so we needn't cover all this ground again need we? Advertising usually costs.

 

[hippy]

There are quite a few possible alterantives to PICAXE, some offer far more than a PICAXE does in terms of hardware, program capacity, speed of execution and more advanced programming languages but nearly all come with a price tag higher than the PICAXE, most are a lot higher.

I think bgrabowski's list of features also applies to most hobbyists. There are cases where a processor other than a PICAXE better fits the bill ( so use them where necessary ), but the PICAXE is a cheap, powerful workhorse and suits many projects. I also much prefer to get 25 off £2 chips, or ten £5 chips than one £50 chip. There's a certain liberation which comes with that, where one can experiment and take on the risk of damage without causing a lot of pain should it not work out as hoped for.

 

[demonicpicaxeguy]

the basic stamp is good as long as your budget is has at least 2 zeros on the end by the time you've blown 1 of them,

personally i'm amased that the basic stamp is still around, i would have thought rev-ed would have sent them broke by now, although the propeller chip is probably their saving grace

the other thing that doesn't get around the forum when the picaxe VS atom VS basic stamp debate starts up, is the testing done on the product before it's released,

so far rev-ed has proven to us they seem to do a fair bit of testing on a product eg the x2's before releasing them i'd question what the others have had in the way of bugs and how many revisions of the firmware there are for each product line

 

[manuka]

I've surely said it all before, but educationally it's as simple as PICAXE = 10/10. Perhaps the real tribute relates to their A1 technical uptake as well. Stan

 

[jmumby]

You can get freeware bootloaders for Microchip PICS so you could in fact reduce the cost to that of the micro itself. But you wont get the support that you would get here. I have had issues with the 28x1 scratchpad (apparently now fixed in v3.) in my frustration I bought an arduino. The hardware limitations for my project on the arduino (one hardware serial and 9600 max on all other pins) though favor the picaxe. This too has a free bootloader but also has huge support. As far as 28 pinners go the starter kit for the arduino is about $3 less but for education C is probably a bit heavy.

 

[hippy]

the other thing that doesn't get around the forum when the picaxe VS atom VS basic stamp debate starts up, is the testing done on the product before it's released, so far rev-ed has proven to us they seem to do a fair bit of testing on a product eg the x2's before releasing them i'd question what the others have had in the way of bugs and how many revisions of the firmware there are for each product line

Rev-Ed unfortunately lost their very good record with the introduction of the X1's and then the 14M.

For the X1's that was a huge leap forward in functionality and correspondingly much harder to test, but it has to be said that some bugs did sneak through which should have been caught by regression testing and standard test procedures. I suspect one problem was that beta testers were probably daunted by the new capabilities of the X1's making it a product which was hard to test rigorously.

Mistakes were made and I am sure that Rev-Ed have taken the lessons on board; we can hopefully think of that as a hiccup which has passed. Don't forget that Firmware Version numbers for PICAXE don't just reflect bug fixes but also added enhancements, processor changes, RoHS changes and manufacturing process changes which didn't alter functionality.

I wouldn't say that other manufacturers do less testing or have to issue more firmware fixes - Parallax in particular have an excellent reputation for their efforts. It's very hard to do any meaningful or quantitative comparisons on firmware upgrades as bugs are a by-product of any software development and usually proportional to complexity, and most bugs only affect a minority of users anyway; just because something's broken doesn't mean it doesn't work !

 

[Mike GTN]

I think the PICAXE is great for the market that was originally developed for. The problem is that all you people are pushing it further and further with great projects! It does seem to be holding up rather well though.

Simple serial downloading, an understandable version of Basic. The price is right! A good support forum is the major bonus, and something that is often lacking to help people over the small problems everyone has had at times. Mike.

 

[Rickharris]

aAnd a lot to do with this excellent forum - There, I said it, because no one else did.

 

[yamato96]

Picaxe is great
It alowed me to get in the MCU world cheaply;
PicBasic is simple to learn and understand;
Has a great web suport and a ton of simple projects on the web.

Basic stamps is more expensive and other chips and modules used with them are more expensive, and its a non EU product.

Forget about other powerfull MCU to start with like AVR, ARM, 16 bit-32 bit, etc, cause prices in the programming boards plus the cost of software were proibited to me as hobby user with no previous experience in digital electronics.

picaxe for its price, easely avaible in the EU, no need of programming board or $pecial software, tons of circuits and projects with cheap hardware associated expanding electronics now-how, is still my best option. Sure has limitations, but has a gold possibility, in the same platform u can easely upgrade on picaxe chip line 8/18/28/40.

Arduino looked to me a possible choice but picbasic win to wiring, less power but far more easy to me to understand.

Proppeler looks powerfull 4 robotics and phisical computing, but i have no skills to control that beast.

 

[blauer]

Picaxe + Pic

Picaxe is absolutely greath. Yes. Rev Ed has done excellent job.
There may be some problems with new models but which electronics product hasen't these days? They tend to be so complicated these days.

PLUS... If Picaxe is not powerfull enough... You can always erase AXE away and you have much more speed/functionality. Plus same I/O legs possibilities which you used when tested with Picaxe. So you don't have do rewiring.

For me Picaxe was good starter and then you can start fiddling with PIC if AXE is not enough for you. BUT I can't personally think what basic/advanced electronics project is not possible with Picaxe?
I think trough my teachers job .

 

[Dippy]

"PLUS... If Picaxe is not powerfull enough... You can always erase AXE away and you have much more speed/functionality. Plus same I/O legs possibilities which you used when tested with Picaxe. So you don't have do rewiring."

- to all Newbies getting excited about this:- It is more difficult/expensive than you think. Let's leave the details for another place, yes?

 

[kam]

Alright Everyone... All In Favour of PICAXE, Say Ay !!!

Alright,

I think this has fired up some real patriotism. I think the guys at rev-ed must be really happy with such a strong feedback.

I still vote for PICAXE, regardless of what other companies bring up... unless its too good & easy. I started working on it about 2 yrs ago and still love it. My latest project was based on a PICAXE. When i told my team mates that i have finished the programming and prototyping part in 2 ~3 hrs. they thought that i was some sort of a Super Programming Wizard... (One even compared me with the creaters of Intel)... Now doesnt that make you feel Good.

But Lets not get carried away with it. There are many other options available that are faster, stronger, have much more functions and memory. They may never be as cheap as the PICAXE but they will certainly give something extra with it. I read somewhere in the post that there are micros with video capability. Now thats something that i would like PICAXE to bring onboard.

There is also the FPGA chips that have alot more complexity but at the same time Much Much Much Greater funtionality!!

Can someone please tell me if PICAXE is the way to go, or should i also learn and explore languages like C, VHDL, etc. I know BasicStamp guys have a chip out that is programmed in JAVA.

My point is that we can certainly do thigs on the PICAXE but at the same time we need to see if its worth it in the long run. I know that people in the industry dont even know about it. Plus they dont even like the idea.

Now How Do You Beat That???

 

[hippy]

Can someone please tell me if PICAXE is the way to go, or should i also learn and explore languages like C, VHDL, etc. I know BasicStamp guys have a chip out that is programmed in JAVA.

My point is that we can certainly do thigs on the PICAXE but at the same time we need to see if its worth it in the long run.

There's no real answer to that; the PICAXE is absolutely brilliant and superb if it does the job you want it to and quite useless if it cannot, but that goes for every other option. Then there's the price, how much effort one is prepared to put in to get the desired end result as opposed to paying a premium to make it easier to achieve.

The PICAXE isn't a universal panacea but then neither is the most powerful and usable alternative if its cost and tool chain costs are beyond ones reach. It isn't the "way to go" for projects which are beyond its capabilities, but that doesn't mean it's not the way to go for projects which it is capable of.

It's a case of using appropriate tools to do the job. The more one knows about the alternatives the better placed one will be to choose what will be a suitable tool for a job and be able to weigh up the pro's and con's of each. So yes, learn about C, Java, other languages and become familiar with all the possible alternatives. The more you know the better you will be able to say why you're making your choice when you have to and the more confident you'll be that you've made a good choice.

There's no real "this processor is better than that processor" assessment possible except when the criteria for that judgement have been defined. Otherwise it's like asking which vehicle is best, and if any particular choice is the way to go - bicycle, motorbike, car, SUV, truck, lorry, F1 racer, all have their advantages and disadvantages, all are suited to some tasks better than others.

 

[Dippy]

"Now How Do You Beat That???"
- dunno.

Hippy says it all. Though it can be summarised in "Horses For Courses". These discussions have cropped up several times before.

What's 'good' for a particular project may not be suitable for another. Of course there are many more sophisticated devices out there, we all know that already. Dig out your wallet and try them out.

Seriously, go ahead, learn all the languages then you'll have a wider choice for your application and a wider portfolio of knowledge for yourself. Makes sense.

But one final thing. Don't forget the polite/generous/amusing support this Forum gives. If some of the questions asked here were asked in 'other places' well, er, the 'asker' would be laughed out of town.

It's not 'patriotism', it's merely trying to put a perspective on the comparisons - and, of course, I assume Kam that if you had a product Forum you'd just love someone to start mentioning alternative products???

 

[Mycroft2152]

There's no real answer to that; the PICAXE is absolutely brilliant and superb if it does the job you want it to and quite useless if it cannot, but that goes for every other option. Then there's the price, how much effort one is prepared to put in to get the desired end result as opposed to paying a premium to make it easier to achieve.

The PICAXE isn't a universal panacea but then neither is the most powerful and usable alternative if its cost and tool chain costs are beyond ones reach. It isn't the "way to go" for projects which are beyond its capabilities, but that doesn't mean it's not the way to go for projects which it is capable of.

It's a case of using appropriate tools to do the job. The more one knows about the alternatives the better placed one will be to choose what will be a suitable tool for a job and be able to weigh up the pro's and con's of each. So yes, learn about C, Java, other languages and become familiar with all the possible alternatives. The more you know the better you will be able to say why you're making your choice when you have to and the more confident you'll be that you've made a good choice.

There's no real "this processor is better than that processor" assessment possible except when the criteria for that judgement have been defined. Otherwise it's like asking which vehicle is best, and if any particular choice is the way to go - bicycle, motorbike, car, SUV, truck, lorry, F1 racer, all have their advantages and disadvantages, all are suited to some tasks better than others.

Hippy,

Well said!

Just because you have a micro, doesn't mean you can make it do everything.
(a typical newbie response)

Throwing throwing a bigger / faster micro into the mix is not the answer.

One must start by defining a proect with the understanding of the capabilities and limitations of the micro as well as your capabilites and limitations.

Then the hard work and fun begins.

Myc

 

[kam]

"Now How Do You Beat That???"
- dunno.

Hippy says it all. Though it can be summarised in "Horses For Courses". These discussions have cropped up several times before.

What's 'good' for a particular project may not be suitable for another. Of course there are many more sophisticated devices out there, we all know that already. Dig out your wallet and try them out.

Seriously, go ahead, learn all the languages then you'll have a wider choice for your application and a wider portfolio of knowledge for yourself. Makes sense.

But one final thing. Don't forget the polite/generous/amusing support this Forum gives. If some of the questions asked here were asked in 'other places' well, er, the 'asker' would be laughed out of town.

It's not 'patriotism', it's merely trying to put a perspective on the comparisons - and, of course, I assume Kam that if you had a product Forum you'd just love someone to start mentioning alternative products???

I completely agree with you. With my previous comment i ment no offence to anyone. Like I said earlier, i sill vote for PICAXE. But at the same time i dont want to limit my self to it.

What i've seen over my time i've spent with the picaxe is that once you get into it, you wanna do everything with it. and it is possible too... to a great extent. I couldn't have acheived my goals with another micro in such a short amount of time and soo painlessly.

But as i mentioned earlier, its not really populer in the industry. Maybe because people in the industry are not comfortable with the idea of change. But im sure once exposed, they'll love it too.

Also i must agree with your comment on the generocity of this forum. I think its true that other forums may not be as open to stupidity as this one is (Excuse my language). But I do have to say that granted this is a product forum, but lets not narrow our vision.

If my comments offended anyone, i apologize for that. i certainly ment no offence.

Cheers
Kam

 

[hippy]

Kam, I don't think you offended anyone so don't worry about that.

You're right, PICAXE isn't a name I'd expect to hear mentioned a lot in commercial circles because it's not primarily targeted at that sector. That said there are commercial products which use PICAXE and there are commercial companies using PICAXE even if they aren't in final product - http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_105700/article.html

All of us are resistant to change, develop brand loyalty and become highly experienced and skilled with what we're used to. That is often more so for industry where change ( including training and gaining experience ) equates to cost and delays while those who have got companies hooked on their product can afford to offer powerful incentives not to change.

It is also true that the PICAXE doesn't necessarily fit the needs of industry who can pick and choose what they use and recruit staff who are already experienced with whatever that is. Where we might choose a bike for a short journey and a car for a longer one, industry will often gravitate to the highest common denominator and pick the car for all journeys; the excessive overheads and wastefulness when a bike would be better suited is offset by the volume discounts buying only cars bring - If PICAXE-40X1 are cheaper in bulk than a PICAXE-08 it makes financial sense to use the 40X1 in everything although the 08 may be more appropriate for some products. The PICAXE faces the same obstacle when companies are already buying off-the-shelf micros in bulk from the big name manufacturers.

That's the nature of business and industry, it ultimately comes down to costs and profit, not always what's best or most appropriate.

PICAXE is unlikely to ever become a dominating force in big industry, so it could be argued that the PICAXE is largely irrelevant to anyone thinking of entering big business other than as a step in learning ( which is its target ). In other cases though it's an option which is very much on the cards for those who are able to have a wider vision and less constraints than big industry does.

< insert rant on the evils of capitalism and globalisation >

 

[Dippy]

"< insert rant on the evils of capitalism and globalisation >"
- oh no..... please don't

You wouldn't be here educating people about programming affordable processors without it.

Maybe we could have a UnHappy Hippy Marxist thread as a separate part on this Forum?

 

[Mycroft2152]

That's the nature of business and industry, it ultimately comes down to costs and profit, not always what's best or most appropriate.

PICAXE is unlikely to ever become a dominating force in big industry, so it could be argued that the PICAXE is largely irrelevant to anyone thinking of entering big business other than as a step in learning ( which is its target ). In other cases though it's an option which is very much on the cards for those who are able to have a wider vision and less constraints than big industry does.[/i]

The PICAXE is a good choice for low volume (hobbyish) manufacturing, where the lower cost of devolpment can be amortized over fewer devices.

For normal high volume (think chinese) manufacturing, the development costs are spread over many units and the the extra cost per chip (Rev_Ed's piece of the pie) makes the PICAXE uneconomic.

Myc

 

[hippy]

It's interesting to compare with the Operating Systems market - Microsoft has so far dominated the desktop market, Linux has largely secured the server market, some people in each camp insist their OS is equally usable in the others', some choose Macs.

 

[Dippy]

More like:-
If it does the job adequately + cheapest + easily available + easiest to integrate = That's the one to use in most consumer devices.

Obviously for specialist and/or bespoke then there are a couple more variables, perhaps even the 'quality' variable sometimes...

 

[demonicpicaxeguy]

"< insert rant on the evils of capitalism and globalisation >"
- oh no..... please don't

You wouldn't be here educating people about programming affordable processors without it.

Maybe we could have a UnHappy Hippy Marxist thread as a separate part on this Forum?

here here .. i agree hippy should start a new thread for it, quite a few might get an education on the "real world" which is better then the "politically correct education" they currently get at school