Picaxe Li-Ion power with integrated USB charging.

smeagol

Member
There are some nice 18650's being sold on ebay, 18350's in an 18650 can with the space filled with sand! Rejects and recycled laptop cells being sold as new.

The fun and fires that can be had with dodgy sellers on ebay.
 

Haku

Senior Member
I wouldn't trust the labels of unbranded 18650 cells to accurately show their true capacity, a while back I bought some cheap 3000mah 18650 cells from China, 2 arrived dead and I took the wrappers off to see what was inside and discovered used Panasonic 17670 cells in plastic tubing & spot welded end caps to make them 18650 sized! The other two (which I assume are also used 17670's in disguise) weren't even 1500mah.

candlepowerforums.com is a good source for information on what cells are good etc. as those torch addicts love to do capacity tests. Branded cells such as Panasonic, Samsung etc. are far more reliable in terms of the actual capacity being close to what's printed on the side.
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
If you're patient, I've heard that Boeing will be selling off some larger capacity Lithium Cobalt batteries on EBay soon ;).
Lithium batteries, even the legit ones, can be hazardous to charge if the proper charging algorithm is not followed.

An anonymous battery from e-bay? I would not risk it.
But that is only my personal opinion.
 

boriz

Senior Member
The charger I indicated will protect the battery from over-charge, and the Picaxe itself can monitor the battery voltage to prevent under-charge. Use Any Li-Ion you like. Conservative under-charge limits will help provide a long service life. I like this system. in addition to being cheap, plug-and-play, USB, built-in charge indicators, light weight, tiny form factor, adjustable charge current, minimal soldering, etc...

Compliments the Picaxe nicely I think. I'd prolly lower the charge current though. Don't want my USB ports trying to supply 1 Amp!

I think Rprog is the small black component at the bottom labeled 102. Replace with 4k for 300mA charging.
 

premelec

Senior Member
I have some older laptop sony li cells - wired in parallel - I understand the upper limit for charge voltage - what is the lower limit for discharge to not cause damage to the cells? Thanks... [yes I looked around the Internet and find various figures...]
 

srnet

Senior Member
Lower limit is around 2.5V, let them go below that and they may then explode on subsequent charging.

However at 3.0v there will only be a couple of percent capacity left, so why risk it ?
 

premelec

Senior Member
@srnet - thanks... I'm thinking of using an up-converter on them so need to arrange auto shutoff - either controlled by PICAXE or other circuitry - I gather the shutoff is not nearly as critical as the charge up limit - PICAXE vrefs should be ok for the shutoff but not accurate enough for pushing the upper charging limit. Just reviewed some of the horror stories about incorrectly handled small cells :)
 

srnet

Senior Member
To be honest the thought of DIY and Lithium battery charging fill me with terror, I would not go there.

Get it wrong and these things will violently explode.
 

boriz

Senior Member
Don't fear the Lithium. Treat it right and it'll be fine. How many countless millions are being used quite safely all over the world? Yes they can burst into flames, but only with extreme maltreatment. I personally find it reassuring that the energy density of these things is so high that they can provide such spectacular failures. I expect the next generation of battery will be even more reassuring. :)
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
How many countless millions are being used quite safely all over the world?
How many are in battery packs which include in-built, tried and tested, battery management with over-charge and over-discharge protection included ?
 

srnet

Senior Member
How many are in battery packs which include in-built, tried and tested, battery management with over-charge and over-discharge protection included ?
Well, virtually all of the Lithiums in mobile devices, phones, cameras and the like, have protection circuits built into the batteries themselves.

These circuits are not charge regulators, but are specifically designed to protect the cells against dangerous over charge, over discharge or over current.

Even though the devices themselves will have a proper charge controller, these battery protection circuits are an essential backup to prevent failure of the battery charging circuit causing the battery in the phone in your pocket to explode.
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
Laptop batteries have a controller board which can shut off the connection between the laptop and cells if necessary and these boards have a thermal fuse and at least one thermistor and this thermistor is stuck between a couple of cells. The cells often have their own built-in protection as well.
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
Many 18650 cells have built in protection circuits, and even more (the majority of well-known brands) are designed to be fire and explosion resistant. Most 18650 cells are manufactured for laptops and the like, and as such don't need to be able to deliver high current. One dodge that many manufacturers have taken is to alter the chemistry to deliberately increase the cell internal resistance, yet still retain a very high energy density. Take the excellent Sanyo/Panasonic 18650 cells for example. They have a capacity of around 3Ah, but have an internal resistance of a whopping 0.085 ohms. This high internal resistance has little effect at the sort of discharge rates needed to run a laptop (maybe 0.2C per cell at most) but has the beneficial effect of limiting both short circuit current and cell heating if over charged. The result is a pretty safe cell, that is extremely hard to get to explode.

This was verified by an acquaintance, who deliberately tried to get these cells to misbehave, by shorting them out and by overcharging them. Even taking them to a cell terminal voltage of 7 or 8 volts (a massive over-charge) had no external effect (although it did ruin the cell).

The well-known manufacturers of these cells learned from the Sony experience that they needed to address cell safety at the cell level, and not be wholly reliant on an external battery management system. AFAIK this works well, but only with cells that have been specifically designed like this. I very strongly suspect that many of the cells sold on ebay and the like are fakes or counterfeit, so what you get is unlikely to conform to the fairly safe specs that the likes of Sanyo/Panasonic have established (amongst others).
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
Many ( Some?) battery packs have temperature switches that open if the battery or battery
pack reaches a certain critical temperature. I acquired 8 of these UBBL02 batteries last year
(gently used) and when one failed to charge properly I cut it open to see what was inside.

The UBBL02 consists of 24 18650 cells and has 4 thermal safety switches as well as controller
circuit board that takes up ~ 20% of the battery space.

http://ultralifecorporation.com/be-military/products/military-rechargeable/UBBL02/
 

boriz

Senior Member
How many are in battery packs which include in-built, tried and tested, battery management with over-charge and over-discharge protection included ?
All of them. You can't use Li-Ion or Li-Po without 'management' or you'll kill the battery and perhaps worse.

"in-built" Is not magic. Nothing a Picaxe can't easily handle. And that's the whole point of this thread.
 

geoff07

Senior Member
So do you have an Li charging algorithm that takes account of measured temperature and voltage? Would be very useful.
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
So do you have an Li charging algorithm that takes account of measured temperature and voltage? Would be very useful.
No need. All lithium chemistry cells need the same basic charge profile, it's just the charge cut-off voltage that varies from one type to another. No need to monitor temperature, as it doesn't change things. All that's needed is a constant current charge source initially, with a constant voltage upper limit. A very simple constant voltage regulator with a constant current feature works perfectly, and is all the dedicated charger chips use.

For LiCoO2 cells (the majority of readily available cells) the charge cut-off voltage should be 4.2V. There is a very tiny cycle life advantage for some cells by only charging to about 4.15V, but any lower charge cut-off voltage just loses a bit of capacity for no useful gain in cell life. Generally it is safe to charge all LiCoO2 cells and their ilk at 0.2C (so 0.2A for a 1Ah cell) during the initial constant current phase, some will happily accept much greater charge rates initially. It doesn't matter whether the current is tapered off as the charge cut-off voltage approaches, as long as the cut-off is reliable and positive. The primary risk is allowing the cell terminal voltage to rise significantly above the charge cut-off point.

For safeties sake it helps if the charger detects an attempt to charge a too deeply discharged cell and also shuts off. Generally it's safe to charge LiCoO2 cells and their ilk if they have been discharged down to about 2.5V, but any lower and there is an increasing possibility that the cell will be internally damaged and may start to puff if charged at a high rate. Such a cell can occasionally be revived with a very gentle charge, but a general purpose charger would be safer if it detected a low initial cell voltage and refused to charge. Generally it is inadvisable to allow LiCoO2 cells to discharge below about 2.8 to 3.0V, and life will be extended if they are never allowed to go below about 3.5 to 3.6V per cell.

For LiFePO4 chemistry cells the charge cut-off voltage is around 3.65V per cell and the maximum allowable discharge voltage is perhaps 2.8 to 2.9V, with the charger refusing to charge if the cell is below about 2.2V. For best life these cells should not be discharged below about 3.0V.

If the intention is to charge a multiple series connected cell pack then it is important that every cell in the pack be monitored and that the charger has a means to shunt current around any individual cell that reaches full charge cut-off voltage before its fellows. Series connected lithium secondary battery packs don't self as lead acid and nickel chemistry cells do, and if over charged without cell level protection a cell terminal voltage will just continue to climb, causing internal damage and risking outgassing or worse.

Cheaper multi-cell chargers use a process of connecting switched bleed resistors across cells that charge earlier than others and cycling the charge current on an off, based on sensing cell voltage. The bleed resistors drain excess charge from the full cell(s) and the pulsed charge current allows the cells that aren't fully charged time to catch up. It's a slow process though, and wasteful of charge power.

A better way to charge a series connected pack is to either use a bank of series connected separate cell chargers (which requires power source isolation for each) or to use a high current shunt regulator across each cell set to operate at the charge cut-off voltage. These shunt regulators then prevent cells from ever exceeding the maximum charge voltage, whilst still allowing charge current to flow to the other cells in the battery pack. The downside with this method is that power dissipation in the shunt regulators can be high, especially if the required charge current is high. There are ways to deal with this, but detecting when the first cell shunt operates and then reducing the charge current to the whole pack, but this slows down the charge process.

I've used all of the above methods and they all work OK. My personal favourite is to use one charger per cell, as it gives the fastest charge and arguably the safest. It is a bit complex though, and needs isolated power supplies for each cell.
 

srnet

Senior Member
For LiCoO2 cells (the majority of readily available cells) the charge cut-off voltage should be 4.2V. There is a very tiny cycle life advantage for some cells by only charging to about 4.15V, but any lower charge cut-off voltage just loses a bit of capacity for no useful gain in cell life.
Not the case I believe, to quote from the battery university website;

"Most Li-ions are charged to 4.20V/cell and every reduction of 0.10V/cell is said to double cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.00V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell 2,400–4,000 cycles "
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
Not the case I believe, to quote from the battery university website;

"Most Li-ions are charged to 4.20V/cell and every reduction of 0.10V/cell is said to double cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.00V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell 2,400–4,000 cycles "
The snag is that the battery university website is choc a bloc full of misinformation, as many of us who've been using lithium chemistry cells have discovered (often to our own cost) over the years.

The relationship between cycle life and SOC control is typical. This varies widely (and non-linearly) with cell chemistry and manufacturing method. It's near-impossible to make broad generalisations in the way that site does without knowing the specifics of the cell. Unlike lead acid or nickel chemistries, lithium cells are extremely sensitive to physical or chemical variations in construction. For example, just changing the grain size of the graphite on the electrodes radically alters cycle life, even without changing the electrode chemistry.

If you take a typical, plain LiCoO2 cell, without additional chemical modification of the electrodes and with a plain polymer electrolyte, then the relationship between cycle life isn't to charge voltage, as misleadingly given on that website, but to the range of SOC that's allowed. SOC is not voltage dependent, nor can it be determined by measuring cell terminal voltage (except at the full charge cut-off point, or the fully discharged cut-off point) so to get extended cycle life cells need to have accurate SOC control. The only way to do that is to do what the vast majority of electric and hybrid vehicles do, which is to monitor total charge energy and total discharge energy and arrange to keep both within the chosen cycle life limits. For example, running from 0% to 100% SOC might only give 200 cycles for a typical cheap cell. Running from 40% to 90% might well give 1500 cycles. Note that raising the discharge SOC limit has a far greater effect on cycle life than lowering the charge SOC limit. Note also that 90% SOC may well be over 4.1V per cell for a typical LiCoO2 cell.

Clearly you cannot track cell SOC easily or reliably by only monitoring and controlling energy in and energy out, as there will be drift over time due to variations in Peukert factor with temperature, rate of charge/discharge and variations in cell internal resistance losses. To correct for these, high life cycle battery management systems do a periodic balance charge, which charges every cell up to 100% by taking them to charge cut-off and holding them there for long enough for the charge current to drop to a very low level. This then resets the charge/discharge energy monitor, which can go back to keeping the cells around the 40% to 90% region.

If even longer cell cycle life is required, such as for a hybrid vehicle, for example, where at least 20,000 to 30,000 cycles are needed, then SOC may well be further limited. Some vehicles run over only a 50% to 80% SOC range, for example, to squeeze a bit more cycle life from the cells. Most vehicles have moved away from plain LiCoO2 chemistry cells though, because no matter what you do you can't get a decent life from them, because age-related degradation plays a bigger part in life than cycle life. The addition of other metal ions to the chemistry is producing cells that have a much longer calendar life, and better cycle life when run over a greater range of SOC. I've not had personal experience of using these, my experience has been primarily with vehicle/boat battery packs that use either LiCoO2 or LiFePO4 chemistry, but looking at some of the industry developments leads me to believe that battery management for long life is probably going to get a bit easier than it is at present.
 
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srnet

Senior Member
I have seen the same information elsewhere, that reducing the charge termination voltage improves cycle life.

There is a graph somewhere, that shows the relationship of charge termination voltage and cycle life, which does rather suggest someone has actually tested it.
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
I have seen the same information elsewhere, that reducing the charge termination voltage improves cycle life.

There is a graph somewhere, that shows the relationship of charge termination voltage and cycle life, which does rather suggest someone has actually tested it.
I can assure you I've tested it, a lot! The strong relationship is clearly between SOC range and cycle life, not charge termination voltage. This is not only borne out by my own practical experience with boat and vehicle battery packs, but also with the practice of electric and hybrid vehicle manufacturers.

If you just do a simple experiment with a battery charger and plot cell terminal voltage with charge energy for a few cells you'll find that there is a fairly wide SOC % variation from cell to cell and with temperature, which shows that it's very hard to determine SOC from cell terminal voltage alone, except for the full charge and zero charge cases.

As I mentioned above, the really big cycle life gain is from preventing the cell from discharging too deeply. This has a significantly greater impact on improving cycle life than limiting maximum SOC during charging. Again this is borne out by commercial practice in hybrid vehicles, where discharge SOC is very tightly controlled.
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
I fully agree with Jeremy's comments but there is a more important factor than charge cycle count.
Particularly with hybrid vehicals, the important issue is the total transfer of watt-hours that can be acheived rather than the number of charge/discharge cycles.
I've not done much testing on the newer technologies but with Pb, interestingly, by reducing the range of SOC you can certainly increase the number of charge cycles, but the total watt-hours that the pack can transfer does not increase dramatically. It's only when you exceed the limits of ~ 20% - 95% that the packs fail early rather than keeping well withing giving you extra mileage (pun intended).

Would be interested to see how total power transfer compares for smaller SOC ranges on the newer technologies.
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
I fully agree with Jeremy's comments but there is a more important factor than charge cycle count.
Particularly with hybrid vehicals, the important issue is the total transfer of watt-hours that can be acheived rather than the number of charge/discharge cycles.
I've not done much testing on the newer technologies but with Pb, interestingly, by reducing the range of SOC you can certainly increase the number of charge cycles, but the total watt-hours that the pack can transfer does not increase dramatically. It's only when you exceed the limits of ~ 20% - 95% that the packs fail early rather than keeping well withing giving you extra mileage (pun intended).

Would be interested to see how total power transfer compares for smaller SOC ranges on the newer technologies.
Depends very much on Peukert factor, internal resistance and max charge current. Hybrids are tough, as they can have very high charge and discharge currents (the high charge current being regenerative braking peaks). This increases IR losses, impacting power transfer efficiency.

Some of the better LiCoO2 formulations and at least one of the LiFePO4 formulations (A123's nanophosphate) have very close to unity Peukert factors and IR values that are down around 3.5 mohm per cell per Ah, which is pretty good. By contrast, the Sanyo/Panasonic 3Ah 18650 cells are around 0.25 ohms per cell per Ah, so about 70 times worse in terms of charge and discharge I²R power loss from IR. Even some of the (relatively) cheap RC model battery packs can achieve IR values of around 2.2 mohms per cell per Ah, and retain a near unity Peukert factor at fairly high charge and discharge rates (up to around 15C charge and 65C discharge) which is pretty impressive.

Reducing SOC range doesn't seem to make a massive difference to power transfer efficiency, it seems reasonably linear except when approaching full charge, where the need for wasteful cell balancing makes it take a hit.
 

geoff07

Senior Member
What a learned lot you are. However, all this being accepted, why do laptop li packs have temperature sensors between the cells? I seem to recall reading that this was to enable shutdown if they got too hot, which presumably they can do when on charge?

My summary/interpretation of the above, please correct if I'm wrong, is
- per cell, charge at say constant C/10 until the voltage reaches a fixed point in the range 4.1 - 4.2 (according to taste/lifecycle requirements), then float at that voltage.
- warn if the discharged cell voltage is below say 2.8 and charge at a much lower rate say C/50
- scrap cells below 2.2v
- in use, cease drawing power when voltage reaches 3v

This would be for safe use for hobby purposes, not for the car!
 

Jeremy Harris

Senior Member
What a learned lot you are. However, all this being accepted, why do laptop li packs have temperature sensors between the cells? I seem to recall reading that this was to enable shutdown if they got too hot, which presumably they can do when on charge?

My summary/interpretation of the above, please correct if I'm wrong, is
- per cell, charge at say constant C/10 until the voltage reaches a fixed point in the range 4.1 - 4.2 (according to taste/lifecycle requirements), then float at that voltage.
- warn if the discharged cell voltage is below say 2.8 and charge at a much lower rate say C/50
- scrap cells below 2.2v
- in use, cease drawing power when voltage reaches 3v

This would be for safe use for hobby purposes, not for the car!
The thermal cut out/thermistor sensor is a belt and braces thing, because cell safety is to some extent dependent on the reliability of the external charge circuitry. Not all packs use temperature sensing, in fact it's not all that common, but I think a lot of manufacturers were worried by the duff cell problem and associated laptop fires that Sony experienced. As it happens, those fires were due to a mechanical fault in the battery design, rather than an intrinsic problem with the cell chemistry, but it put the wind up a few manufacturers just the same.

The charge/discharge regime you've outlined is OK, the only thing I might add is complete charge cut off once a cell hits the full charge voltage and charge current drops to a low value (5 to 10% of normal charge current).

For best storage life (not cycle life) then limiting charge voltage to a significantly lower level makes an appreciable difference. If, for example, you know that your not going to be using a cell for some time, then you can extend its shelf life by only charging it to around 3.8 to 3.9V. It will only be around 50 to 70% charged at this voltage, but it will chemically degrade at a slower rate than if stored at maximum charge. Being able to do this is useful on a general purpose charger, if you think you might need to store cells without usign them.
 

boriz

Senior Member
I wonder if you could PWM the charge current using higher voltages? EG: (say) 10 seconds of 12v (or any voltage) 100% PWM @ C/10, then stop and measure the terminal voltage, then repeat until approaching charge cutoff voltage, and then repeat with ever reducing PWM%, until cutoff voltage reached. Or something like that.

Charge and discharge monitoring could all be done with a Picaxe. The charge phase would need some kind of fail-safe to prevent overcharge if the Picaxe crashes.
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
I wonder if you could PWM the charge current using higher voltages? .
Not without something between the battery and voltage source that would offer some form of impedance.
Many chargers do just that with an inductor in series and a catch diode. Essentially you then have a controllable switch mode constant current/voltage battery charger!
In practice this is not very effective with a PICAXE due to the coarse (10-bit) nature of its PWM. VERY fine duty variation is required. I've posted details of this a few years ago.
 
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