PE6 - I need to vent...

[Hemi345]

I need to vent since I just destroyed a 20M2 this morning for no good reason.



I designed some RGBW controllers for my daughters loft beds lighting project. During the initial programming, I was able to program one of them once and then not again. I thought maybe I had a bad solder joint on either the 10K or 22K resistors (surface mount) so I touched them up with the iron and then it programmed fine. Fast forward a couple weeks to this morning. I was updating the program on both of them. Hooked the cable up to the first one and it programmed without issue. Moved over to the second one and I could see the project running in the terminal but couldn't program it. No hardware found. If I did a hard reset on it, it would say something like "Error: invalid PICAXE chip detected 28X v7.3" or something like that. Same issue I had on the other one initially. Thinking that maybe this one might also have a dodgy solder joint, I took it to my bench and touched up the 10K and 22K resistors. Checking with DMM, I read 22K between SI leg on PICAXE and SI programming header and 10K reading between SI programming header and ground leg on PICAXE. Looks good. Try programming again and same thing. Reboot my laptop, same thing. This was with the AXE027 cable. Try my Trendnet and Vantec programming cables, still the same thing even after rebooting the laptop again and again. At that point, I should have tried another one of my other projects or run the cable test but since I could see this one running in the terminal and this is happening with three different serial cables I'm thinking it's gotta be the chip.... Of course, on this one, I soldered the PICAXE directly to the board because I ran out of 20pin sockets (used the last on my other daughter's board).

Thinking that maybe I messed up the PIC when I soldered it or maybe ESD'd the programming side of things, I tried desoldering the PIC. After an hour of wick and solder sucker I basically destroyed the chip trying removing it from the board. I have one more 20M2 on hand that I can replace it with and this time I use a 14pin and 6pin DIP socket to pop the 20M2 in. I do that and guess what... still the same issue, can't program but I can see it saying "This is your PICAXE 20M2" over and over in the terminal. So I grab a couple other projects and I can't program them either. I run the serial cable test and get a message saying the port is in use by something else. I get no such message when trying to program the chip, just message that it can't detect a PICAXE connected or, on PICAXE hard reset, that the chip type is a 28X. I can see stuff in the terminal but the serial cable test finally tells me that the port is in use!?!? $@#$!@#!! I try the same thing test with my other serial cables and see the same behavior. After closing PE and then starting it back up without the cable connected, then connect the cable I get success during the cable test and I can finally program the chip.

It would be super helpful if PE would run the download cable test before it attempts to program the chip... if that adds a few seconds to the programming procedure, then so be it. Or maybe if the download fails, instead of just an OK button to acknowledge the error, an option to run the programming cable test? Don't get me wrong, I love PE6 and PICAXE in general, but this morning just frustrated the hell out of me.

BTW, I'm running Windows 10 Pro and using PE v6.0.8.11.

</vent>

 

[erco]

Well that's a bummer and a waste of time. I'll wait a while before asking "why no socket"... oops!

I hand build lots of boards, and I must admit, I still get a kick every time I do the initial smoke test. Hook up my homemade (Goeytex inverted) cable and click PE5's Options/Check Firmware Version and hope for that sweet bell sound. I generally run ~95%. If something doesn't work, I give the board another visual inspection, check for 32K ohms from the Serin pin to ground, then finally (sorry) swap the chip out of the socket.

 

[inglewoodpete]

Well that's a bummer and a waste of time. I'll wait a while before asking "why no socket"... oops!

Why no socket? +1

Also, when desoldering without a hot air station, don't remove solder first - add solder, even bridge the pins with solder! This gives you a far better chance of keeping the solder on most/all legs melted at once, allowing better chance of removing the chip. At the same time, take your time, let the component cool down before trying the other end or side. Components are pretty tough but you can damage them with too much heat for too long.

 

[hippy]

It would be super helpful if PE would run the download cable test before it attempts to program the chip...

PE6 and the compilers do run a cable test in so far that they check the COM port is present and that Windows will grant access to it before every attempt to download and similar, check they do have access once they have asked Windows for access. That is exactly the same as the Cable Check would have done before announcing the port was in use or otherwise unavailable.

One should see that mechanism working if one opens PE5 Terminal or other terminal emulator on the download port and then attempts to download, clear hardware memory or identify PICAXE type from PE6. That should generate "Can' open port" errors, or similar.

It is not clear what the issue was which caused things not to work as expected, why a Cable Check would identify a port in use whereas PE6 doing the same checks does not.

It is also not clear why the PICAXE would be reporting its output as "This is your PICAXE 20M2" but being identified as a 28X. In some rare circumstances specific SERTXD output from a PICAXE may interfere with the identification process but a Hard Reset should resolve that and any "Hardware not found" problems when downloading.

It sounds like PE6 / Windows was being affected by something and that restarting PE6 with the cable unplugged resolved that issue. If PE6 asks for access, is told it can have that access and has been given it, it is then very difficult to determine that access has not been granted, data received is not correct or something has gone wrong, but we will make a note of the issue and see if there may perhaps be additional tests we could do which could identify such a problem.

 

[Hemi345]

Yes, I'll use a socket in the future...first project of many that I thought I wouldn't need it since everything worked fine on an identical board that did have a socket. go figure.

Seems to be an issue if I launch PE6 with the cable plugged in and immediate fire up the terminal to see if the project is working then try to program it. I can recreate the issue almost every time. Only thing that's getting sent to the terminal from the project while it is running (about every second) is:

if wTimeCmp <> time then
    sertxd (" T",#time,":",#wIter)
    wTimeCmp = time
    [more code here but nothing sent to terminal]
end if

If I launch PE6 with cable disconnected, then plug it in and program that works most of the time. Odd that the download cable test detects there is an issue but while trying to program the chip it does not. Thank you for looking into this.

 

[hippy]

Seems to be an issue if I launch PE6 with the cable plugged in and immediate fire up the terminal to see if the project is working then try to program it. I can recreate the issue almost every time.

If the Terminal window is open when programming is attempted the Terminal port should be automatically closed, before the port is re-opened by the downloader. If the Terminal window is closed, the port will have closed as the Terminal closes.

That behaviour is what I am seeing and what we have seen when testing, but it may be that something about Windows 10 or your particular configuration is causing some issue.

If the Terminal window were open with the port open, then a Cable Test would report the port were in use by another program as it in fact is. The Cable Test is a separate application to PE6 and PE6 would in those circumstances have the port open.

It is interesting that you are not seeing the issue every time. If it were a systemic problem within PE6 we would expect that every time. I recall we improved the behaviour and tested that because we did have an oversight where something wasn't closing the port to allow something else to proceed and that was reproducible every time.

Some oddity in timing may cause a "port in use" error if PE6 tries to re-open it before it has actually closed, but it would not proceed to download if the port had not been closed and could be re-opened for the download.

A "hardware not found" error in those circumstances would suggest the PICAXE was busy doing something, not acknowledging the download.

A Hard Reset should cure that, and it should then acknowledge the download. That you were getting an error which indicates it is a 28X is still odd. That suggests the Hard Reset is not working as would be expected and PE6 were misinterpreting data seen from the PICAXE.

Can you clarify exactly what error messages you are currently receiving when you cannot program.

It would also help if you could describe the exact steps you have taken in opening Terminal etc when download fails.

I suspect this all comes down to the PICAXE not responding to the download initiation and some issue with Hard Reset procedure and the result of that is making things look far more broken than they actually are.

 

[premelec]

@Hemi345 you started with "I need to vent since I just destroyed a 20M2 this morning for no good reason." I am curious as to how did you destroy a 20M2 - desoldering or also some electrical fault? There are many methods of IC removal - one I've used in a pinch is a U piece of 12 gauge wire inside the pin pattern then wetted with solder all around and heated while pulling the chip... not pretty but usually works... I still use PE5 and serial port adapter... ;-0

 

[erco]

I still use PE5 and serial port adapter... ;-0

I'm starting to wonder how many people actually use PE6... Is it just Hemi345?

 

[alhoop]

I still use PE5. I'm scared of PE6 - after a few uses.
What exactly are the advantages of PE6 vs PE5?
Al

 

[inglewoodpete]

I'm starting to wonder how many people actually use PE6... Is it just Hemi345?

I use PE6 all the time - to me, there is no going back. By "all the time" I mean just about every day - I use PICAXE for both personal and professional projects. In my opinion, the PE6 user interface is superior.

 

[oracacle]

I use PE6 too, I have it 2 desktops and 1 laptop that run it more than happily.

The slightly annoying thing about people not using it, and then whining and complaining is the fact that faults and issues cant be found unless people use it. No matter how much beta testing that is done developers will never be able to account for every variable, Don't forget the PE6 isn't long out of beta and work well be comparison to other software that is a lot older - how is PE5, how many years has it been developed for?

Considering PE is free it a cracking bit of software.

 

[cravenhaven]

I'm starting to wonder how many people actually use PE6... Is it just Hemi345?

I use PE6 on windows 10 on a couple of computers and have no problems with it at all. As Pete says it has a better user interface and works well with my old Prolific based USB/serial adapter. What more could you ask for

 

[marks]

I have to agree with oracacle , Rev Ed have done an excellent job and hope they always continue and improve!
Its no wonder w10 was given away for free it was an incomplete product and is sloww to improve
with the lastest anniversary its getting there..

Its the first time since ive had time to write some code for a while.
previous had w7 found myself swapping between pe5.5 and 6.0.8.10 i did like the speed of early pe.

just installed w10 with 6.0.8.11
still takes time to load but does seem a lot quicker I think i'll continue to just use the new 1.
i have seen similiar issues like Hemi345 also. i find myself checking what picaxe is connected alot
it may be a matter of getting use to using worksheets also as ive mixed verions picaxes in use.

I also think some of of the problems are w10 its slowly improving with the aniversary slightly better again

the usb ports seem to work differently than version w7 motherboard ports would match
w10 seems to give a device its own com port number
example using the same usb port axe027 is com3 unplug and use a cbh340 and it shows up as com6.

I can see why members have trouble getting there axe027 to work!
it doesnt install with 6.0.8.11 you have install manualy using device manager
update (axe027!)
you have to point it USB Drivers / axe027
it then comes up as (USB!)
so doit again USB Drivers / axe027

The cbh340 is good plug it in w10 self installs drivers of the net within seconds.

so plug it in refresh coms ports and select.
leaving it plugged in you can open and close the pe
when the usb device is unplugged
the pe alsways defaults to coms1 i guess its the only device the pc can see.
( which is funny because hardly any new motherboard has hardware to use it )
but you can install a cheap card and readdress it.)
the only thing i dont like .I use too quickly look for code files opening with notebook
know the files are reconised as pe6 (which takes too long to open) you have change to open with notebook to quickly view.

but it is getting better and better ,has the lastest support , just hav to get use to changes.
Santa better do the right thing this year ,a new fast pc with an SolidStatedrive that will speed things up and a Big Biger screen!

 

[hippy]

What exactly are the advantages of PE6 vs PE5?

The main one is that PE6 is the software which will be supported and enhanced going into the future.

 

[Technical]

I'm starting to wonder how many people actually use PE6... Is it just Hemi345?

Over 90% of users now use PE6.

Under 1% of users ever make any post on the forum.

 

[inglewoodpete]

Santa better do the right thing this year ,a new fast pc with an SolidStatedrive that will speed things up and a Big Biger screen!

Santa was good to me (maybe I was good for santa ) and I have a fast PC and an SS drive. Perhaps you should put a sign on your chimney.

 

[marks]

Blimey!!!

Last years investment ,there was a giant helipad with picaxe controlled lazer landing lights !
surely Santa's VR headset should of been able to see that?

I guess a nice coldy of the best bottlied premiem BEER doesnt cut it anymore.

The family next door has already started working getting their lightning display started for Christmas.

I think I will have to look for a sign in Inglewood
I bet there's 100% 100 year old whiskey next to that chimney!

Now that I think of it my gps setting is about 200m off
so that (Boy Unknown Gets Greedy Even Rowdy ) in the next street probaly gets my only once in a year gift.(fast PC and an SS drive)

Actually Pete I know your good,
you must be the one with the batman light ,sled detector and tractor beam
you get it all!
Or is that Westy's new house...
and all us kids north of you get missed

ah well hopefully the rest of us can still count on halloween black friday discount from REv Ed

 

[oracacle]

is this a good time to mention how much I hate Christmas, working in retail has embittered me beyond the Grinch I once was

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm not knocking PE6, just highlighting features that, for me, are problematic. Firstly, and unrelated to PE6, the only Linux programming app, Axepad, behaves inconsistently when it comes to saving files, and has caused me to lose a few files now, so I've stopped using it. No one seems to be able to pinpoint the cause for this, and there's been a thread here about this running for a fair time now with lots of good ideas, but no clear fix.

PE6 doesn't run under Linux at all, as far as I can tell (happy to be proved wrong!). So, PE5 is the "common denominator", it runs on Windows and Linux OK, and so for me is always going to be the programming tool of choice, just for that fact alone. I now only have one Windows PC, and that's three years old. When it eventually dies it will be replaced with a Linux machine, so I'll carry on running PE5 for the foreseeable future.

Talking to friends who are teachers, it seems that a fair sector of the educational market is also moving towards Linux. The popularity of the Raspberry Pi in education has undoubtedly pushed that a bit, but I suspect that with squeezed budgets, the additional cost, and more importantly, perhaps, the very much increased maintenance overhead, of continuing to run Windows is, sooner or later, going to lead to Windows losing out in this sector. As soon as educational establishments realise the inherent data insecurity problems in current versions of Windows, where the model is to earn revenue from users data, rather than just from a licence fee, I suspect there will be more of a push to switch to a "safer" and certainly far more secure (in privacy terms) OS.

I'm sure that Rev Ed can see this as well as anyone else, so I'm hopeful that we may see something with the capabilities of PE6 that works across multiple platforms before too long.

 

[inglewoodpete]

Actually Pete I know your good,
you must be the one with the batman light ,sled detector and tractor beam
you get it all!
... display started for Christmas.

Here's a photo of my latest project. Gentle colour transitions every few seconds. Relevance? I used PE6 to write the software .

 

[hippy]

There is an increase in Linux and non-X86 use and we are aware of that. Most users are however still using Windows and that is a fact of life. It is not entirely easy to produce an easy to install, single, multi-platform, multi-architecture, solution though things do seem to be improving.

The issues with AXEpad on Linux are rather frustrating and these seem to be issues with Linux and/or its libraries rather than in AXEpad itself. If it works on one Linux it should work on any other Linux. That it is sometimes not the case is one of the reasons why there can be reluctance to support Linux.

 

[Hemi345]

I use the #include feature and 2nd slots on the M series quite a bit so PE6 is great and I believe the only option to use that. The simulation feature is much better in PE6 too.

I destroyed a few legs on the 20M2 because I couldn't get them desoldered (legs 5, 9, 10, and 11) because I had snuck a decoupling cap between V+ and V- and had a header soldered at the other end so getting something under it to pry up while all the solder was hot was difficult. Chip might still work for a project I don't need those legs for but doubt I'll try using it.

If the Terminal window is open when programming is attempted the Terminal port should be automatically closed, before the port is re-opened by the downloader. If the Terminal window is closed, the port will have closed as the Terminal closes.

That behaviour is what I am seeing and what we have seen when testing, but it may be that something about Windows 10 or your particular configuration is causing some issue.

If the Terminal window were open with the port open, then a Cable Test would report the port were in use by another program as it in fact is. The Cable Test is a separate application to PE6 and PE6 would in those circumstances have the port open.

It is interesting that you are not seeing the issue every time. If it were a systemic problem within PE6 we would expect that every time. I recall we improved the behaviour and tested that because we did have an oversight where something wasn't closing the port to allow something else to proceed and that was reproducible every time.

Some oddity in timing may cause a "port in use" error if PE6 tries to re-open it before it has actually closed, but it would not proceed to download if the port had not been closed and could be re-opened for the download.

A "hardware not found" error in those circumstances would suggest the PICAXE was busy doing something, not acknowledging the download.

A Hard Reset should cure that, and it should then acknowledge the download. That you were getting an error which indicates it is a 28X is still odd. That suggests the Hard Reset is not working as would be expected and PE6 were misinterpreting data seen from the PICAXE.

Can you clarify exactly what error messages you are currently receiving when you cannot program.

It would also help if you could describe the exact steps you have taken in opening Terminal etc when download fails.

I suspect this all comes down to the PICAXE not responding to the download initiation and some issue with Hard Reset procedure and the result of that is making things look far more broken than they actually are.

Yep, I've seen witnessed the terminal port closing when I've clicked the program icon.

I will run through this and detail step by step so that your team can hopefully track down this issue.

One other thing I've noticed that could be related is that after multiple downloads, the terminal will sometimes quit receiving data even though the program tells the terminal port to open after download (like the code below):

#picaxe 20m2
setfreq m8
#no_data
#terminal 9600

This requires closing the terminal window and reopening it (toggling Open Port/Close Port won't fix it). I have seen that behavior since early PE6 versions. I thought maybe it might be related to my using the Vantec and Trendnet USB serial adapters but have noticed it with the AXE027 as well.

 

[hippy]

One other thing I've noticed that could be related is that after multiple downloads, the terminal will sometimes quit receiving data even though the program tells the terminal port to open after download (like the code below) ... This requires closing the terminal window and reopening it (toggling Open Port/Close Port won't fix it).

I have not observed behaviour like that but will try some tests. The terminal should re-open the Terminal port after the download so it could be related whatever other issue you are having. If the PE6 downloader is losing access to the port it would not be unreasonable if Terminal did the same.

It may be worth keeping an eye on the port setting; if a port is lost through a loose USB connection or similar then it could perhaps cause a change to a port which exists, most likely motherboard COM1.

 

[cravenhaven]

One other thing I've noticed that could be related is that after multiple downloads, the terminal will sometimes quit receiving data even though the program tells the terminal port to open after download (like the code below):

I have noticed the same thing, in fact it seems to be the normal way.

 

[inglewoodpete]

Occasionally, I have had similar experiences when the terminal stops logging.

 

[erco]

Over 90% of users now use PE6.

Under 1% of users ever make any post on the forum.

How could you possibly quote figures like those, which btw appear to conflict with each other? Where is your data coming from? Seems like forum feedback would be invaluable and a real time direct link to us fanboys.

 

[Technical]

We greatly value all feedback from users, particularly from the forum. However it has to be remembered that people who actively use a forum (for any product, not just PICAXE) will always represent a very small percentage of the total number of users of that product. That is especially true for PICAXE which has a very large educational use in schools, but those users very rarely make any forum posts at all.

 

[Circuit]

Blimey!!!

so that b***** in the next street ...

Sir, please avoid using obscene language on a site that is available to children.
May I request that you edit your post to remove the indelicate and offensive term.

 

[erco]

We greatly value all feedback from users, particularly from the forum. However it has to be remembered that people who actively use a forum (for any product, not just PICAXE) will always represent a very small percentage of the total number of users of that product. That is especially true for PICAXE which has a very large educational use in schools, but those users very rarely make any forum posts at all.

Agreed, forumistas are awesome, but you may have heard that overall, humans can be somewhat resistant to change: "If it ain't broke, don't break it." For that very reason, I would lay money that the bulk of your silent majority (schools etc) haven't upgraded to PE6 and may not even know about it if they are not regular website visitors and/or forum users. No one clamors for change when things work. Professional IT techs in schools (and corporations!) will avoid deploying upgrades to their aging fleet of computers as long as possible. Curious why Windows XP is still used by the military, banks, utilities, and people? Because it works.

BTW this is nothing against PE6, just a validation that PE5 was, is, and shall continue to be a fine, useful piece of software. Please keep BAS805 available for download for the foreseeable future.

 

[premelec]

@Technical " Over 90% of users now use PE6. Under 1% of users ever make any post on the forum." - Aha! this implies there is spywear in the PE reporting who is using what wherever they are! How else do you know who is using what where? ;-0 Is the system rigged? We're having a jolly time over here with election rhetoric...

 

[Technical]

PE5 has been discontinued for several years and in recent months new downloads of PE5 (yes our website analytics log the number of both PE5 and PE6 downloads) are very few and far between. There is no secret spyware - even if no previous PE5 user had upgraded at all, the number of PE6 users(downloads) would still be far greater than PE5 users(downloads)! This is also verified by our support calls etc. etc. Of courses 90% can only ever be an estimate, but we believe it is fairly accurate. For instance currently the greatest growth in our biggest market, schools, is via using the Blockly programming interface, and this isn't actually available in PE5 at all.

The forum home page footer shows there are currently 71,053 registered forum users, about 400 active (recently posted). That is a very small figure compared to the total number of PICAXE chip/boards sold over the past 20 years!

PE5, like Windows XP, is discontinued and no longer developed. You can continue using either, but they are still obsolete.

 

[stan74]

I've just started using picaxe and downloaded pe for win.Works ok on dual boot win 7/10 laptop with serial cable from re.
Just the pop out pic on the right isn't the pic in use.Shame because it's nice to see the positions of the pins when testing.
PE can't find some .bas files created on the other windows partition ie win 7 pe can't find win 10 pe files and visa versa.

 

[premelec]

I'm happy that i can still use the RevEd products I bought many years ago and grateful for this excellent forum - I downloaded PE6 but don't use it both because I'm used to PE5 and PE6 is very slow to load up and obscure to my PE5 brain [80 years old doesn't help]. There are so many systems available now - If I was starting out I'm not sure I'd select the PICAXE [was using BASIC STAMP before I found the PICAXE via Peter Anderson]. So I appreciate the support I get from RevEd and am wary of marketplace pressures to go some other platform [e.g. smart phone which I don't own]. Most of the things I have done with PICAXE could be done with my VIC20 or C64 though not in such a small package and not with excellent forum support... So the bottom line is thanks to RevEd and caution of the general atmosphere of planned obsolescence so prevalent [though exothermic smart phones do seem exciting ;-0 ] - Long Live the PICAXE!

 

[hippy]

I have removed a number of posts which have taken the thread way off-topic. While it is appreciated that people may have legitimate gripes about particular operating systems and those who provide them this is not the forum for such discussion.

 

[wapo54001]

I have removed a number of posts which have taken the thread way off-topic. While it is appreciated that people may have legitimate gripes about particular operating systems and those who provide them this is not the forum for such discussion.

In spite of the wandering subject matter, what seems evident is that non-Windows based Picaxe activity is becoming increasingly important and some resources might be applied to PE5 -- not to add features but simply to make it 'supported' on Linux since Axepad doesn't seem to satisfy . . .

 

[Jeremy Harris]

In spite of the wandering subject matter, what seems evident is that non-Windows based Picaxe activity is becoming increasingly important and some resources might be applied to PE5 -- not to add features but simply to make it 'supported' on Linux since Axepad doesn't seem to satisfy . . .

I agree. I spent an hour or so digging out that info that was deleted, with the good intention of trying to help other members here. I'm not sure I'll bother again.

I accept that we were drifting off topic, but there is an important issue here about non-Windows Picaxe support options.

 

[Buzby]

Hi Jeremy,

Luckily I kept the github/StephenBlack page open overnight, not by design, I just forgot to close it.
So your hours of digging were not in vain, I am going to update my host file.

Unfortunately I can't keep this thread on topic, so I hope you read this before it gets deleted.

Thanks for the heads up,

Buzby

 

[rq3]

I have removed a number of posts which have taken the thread way off-topic. While it is appreciated that people may have legitimate gripes about particular operating systems and those who provide them this is not the forum for such discussion.

Hippy, which forum, then? I am infinitely grateful to you and technical for all of your support over the years. BUT, I have been running much of my technical software under Unix (Linux) for many years. I would do the same for RevEd products were it easy to do. I haven't upgraded a MicroSoft "operating system" in years, because they are no longer operating systems. They are revenue streams for MicroSoft.

I understand that you must issue software that will run as flawlessly as possible under the most readily available operating system, but folks are rapidly becoming aware that there really is more than one operating system. There is more than Windows.

 

[AllyCat]

Hi,

I spent an hour or so digging out that info that was deleted, with the good intention of trying to help other members here. I'm not sure I'll bother again.

+1. I think it is "unfortunate" if that information was deleted and not moved to (start) another thread, as has been done for other "off topic" contributions recently. Personally, I am still a Windows "user" (I have to confess still mainly XP), but do find that PE5 and WinAXEpad are more suited to my own needs/desires.

Cheers, Alan.

 

[Technical]

The non-PICAXE discussion is available here:
http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?29367-Windows-off-topic