Hippy status, rev 2.0

erco

Senior Member
Hip-hip-hooray for Hippy's return! SO glad to hear you're back where you belong. Your absence made a weird year even weirder. Welcome back.
 

rq3

Senior Member
Hi folks - I'm back !

Thanks for all your expressions of concern and appreciations. And apologies for my long absence.

Due to the way things were it was proving just too tempting to respond to posts, get engaged and caught-up in discussions, so I cut myself off from the forum as much as that meant missing the community and all of you in it.

As a consequence I have missed a fair bit and am still in the process of catching up, trying to recall all the things which were second nature back then.

Hopefully I will soon be back up to speed and it will be 'back to normal'.

And just to say; it is good to be back and to see you all here. And many, many, thanks to everyone who posted and helped out, answered questions and gave advice, while I was away.
hippy, hippy, hooray!!! It's very good to see you here, and I'm going to take it as an indication that this planet is getting back to "normal", in a good way. You have been missed. Welcome home.
 

lbenson

Senior Member
Very happy to see you back, hippy. The forum has not been the same place without you. I hope Rev-Ed has a use for the skills you have beyond the helping of forum posters.
 

johnlong

Senior Member
What a lovely suprise when reading simple VGA for vga to see a responce from Hippy
A big fat welome back, the knowloge that you are safe and well is most welcome
 

Buzby

Senior Member
@erco wrote '8M4-WIFI-IOT-BT with integral antenna & USB connector/serial adapter;

No chance !,

RevEd have a steady income from the education market. It gets renewed every year as the new pupils arrive at the start.

The requirements of those that leave at the end are not RevEDs market, so why develop products for them ?

The Picaxe market is like that for baby clothes. It works because there are always new babies arriving, and that's a continuous ( but slowly growing ) market. If your company survives by just selling baby clothes then the investment needed to break into teenager clothes is probably beyond your means. The hobbyist and techie development markets are already awash with devices that outperform RevEd's offerings by a mile.

The doodling bot you prototyped with Picaxe, what did the retail product use ?

I like Picaxe, but it is getting a bit long in the tooth, like me.

Cheers,

Buzby
 

steliosm

Senior Member
Probably Bluetooth and WiFi is something that we will never see on a Picaxe chip. You do have IR though, it's almost like it is VLC ((In)Visible Light Communications) ready! But, this is not necessarily a bad thing. There are numerous chips out there to be used as peripherals and to help you connect through Bluetooth or WiFi. Most of them are dirt cheap and very simple to use. No need to adapt your code to call BT/WiFi APIs and also make sure you keep the watchdogs happy. A simple serial connection is what is needed most of the times.

The limitations I see with Picaxe chips are the limited maths, small RAM memory and small code memory. This is what I would like to see been addressed by Rev Ed. in the next version. Also, switching from the expensive "ftdi" serial cable to a generic usb-ttl cable would help a lot. I have a couple of them because I work with Picaxe chips. My friends/colleagues don't have a cable and spending 20 euros just to be able to update the firmware on a chip it's just not reasonable, given the fact that a 2 euro usb-ttl cable/adaptor works fine with an arduino board. It used to be fine and very cheap when PCs had serial ports. It's not the same case for the past decade any more.

I totally understand the business model of Rev. Ed. and I hope it will keep them afloat for the long run. Yes, M2 is a rather old product, but there are still 8051 MCUs being produced and sold.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Also, switching from the expensive "ftdi" serial cable to a generic usb-ttl cable would help a lot.
It is possible to use generic non-FTDI USB modules if one really wants to. All that should be needed is something to change the polarity of the signals from UART (idle high) to RS232-style (idle low) and that can be achieved with any inverting logic package, Inverter, NAND, NOR, XOR, a couple of transistors if that way inclined, or, of course, a MAX232 or the like.

Another alternative is any USB-to-RS232 9-way and a 9-way adaptor cable (AXE026) or something DIY.

Not the perfect solution, not as easy as directly connecting to a PICAXE, but an option if on a tight budget. The downside is that we cannot provide technical support for such cables and drivers but that shouldn't be a problem for most people experienced enough.

Because the PICAXE was designed for RS232, uses active high signalling to initiate a download, it isn't possible to have the Download Serial In accept UART as well as RS232 input.
 

steliosm

Senior Member
Yes, Hippy, you are right. You can do a hack-mod version of the cable by using a cheap usb-to-ttl adapter and inverting the signals. Still, I think the adapter/chip should support the break signal, which is not the case for most of the usb-ttl chip. I had partial success when trying this: was working with linux but failed to work with windows.

Good to have you back hippy!
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Still, I think the adapter/chip should support the break signal, which is not the case for most of the usb-ttl chip.
You could well be right; not all chips or drivers support 'break signalling'. It can sometimes be possible to connect a button between the Download Serial In pin on the chip and +V, use that as a 'push to initiate download'. One could probably survive with that in the short term but not ideal.

There's unfortunately not a lot we can do about chips and drivers which don't fully support what they should. It's all this which has us recommending the AXE027 because that should be plain sailing, though Windows does still trip-up a few people. In many ways it's paying to avoid frustration and time spent getting a Heath Robinson contraption built and working.

When I have bought adaptors because I am not sure if I will need them or not, or not sure if something is worth buying, I usually depreciate cost over however long I need it for. I also apply the old 'if it keeps me entertained as long as the same priced pints would; it's value for money'. £15 spent on an AXE027, if useful for a year, is only 30p a week, and one can't get much for 30p a week. But I understand where you are coming from as up-front costs always feel expensive.
 

erco

Senior Member
Re: cheap USB converters, I still swear by Goeytex's wonderful post at https://picaxeforum.co.uk/threads/problem-with-downloading-the-program-onto-the-picaxe.18715/#post-174475

I have built dozens of these using one-dollar adapters, and they all work fine. In fact, most any USB-serial adapter works, as long as Win10 supports it. CP2102, CH340, and FTDI are good choices. Pass on Prolific's PL-2303 adapter, most are the HX version which Win10 doesn't support. Personally I avoid FTDIs, which are usually pricier. And I have neither forgiven nor forgotten 2014's FTDI-gate: https://www.zdnet.com/article/ftdi-admits-to-bricking-innocent-users-chips-in-silent-update/ Bricked chips, anyone?

BTW, Goeytex strongly suggests grounding unused inverter input pins. I do this now, but I have a dozen of the first ones I built which still work fine. Like the bumblebee who doesn't know it's not supposed to be able to fly.
 

neiltechspec

Senior Member
Been using a CP2102 with 2 I/P nands as inverters for a few years now, since my axe027 died (could have been my fault - overvoltage). Never fails and easy to change inverters if I ever kill 'em.

I only program @ 5v, so only use the pull down resistor on picaxe chip, without serial resistor.
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
Re: cheap USB converters, I still swear by Goeytex's wonderful post at https://picaxeforum.co.uk/threads/problem-with-downloading-the-program-onto-the-picaxe.18715/#post-174475

I have built dozens of these using one-dollar adapters, and they all work fine.
That might be the key to the argument. Needing/building dozens could possibly press the budget.

Personally, I'm considering buying a second AXE027 FTDI cable. I already have an AXE026 and an AXE027. I also have a Prolific USB to DE9 cable but the drivers are not maintainable due to the manufacturer's response to cloning.

I only program @ 5v, so only use the pull down resistor on picaxe chip, without serial resistor.
Don't forget the extra resistor when you find yourself powering a PICAXE project with 3v!!
 
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hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
In fact, most any USB-serial adapter works, as long as Win10 supports it. CP2102, CH340, and FTDI are good choices. Pass on Prolific's PL-2303 adapter, most are the HX version which Win10 doesn't support.
My trusty XP system finally crashed and burned so I have got with the programme and am using Windows 10 as my primary home system. I will work my way through the sack of adapters I have acquired over the years and see what works and doesn't. for me..

I don't recall any problems with Prolific but that could be down to their being older versions.

And I have neither forgiven nor forgotten 2014's FTDI-gate: https://www.zdnet.com/article/ftdi-admits-to-bricking-innocent-users-chips-in-silent-update/ Bricked chips, anyone?
I can sympathise with where FTDI were coming from as they were having their business stolen from under their feet, were suffering reputational damage when being blamed for issues with chips they had not manufactured nor sold. The problem with their solution is they underestimated how many believed those selling 'fake chips' should be allowed to do that.

ZD Net's claim that "FTDI's surprise new driver reprograms the USB PID to 0, killing the chips instantly" isn't actually true, nor are they "bricked". It is just that Windows won't enumerate a device with a PID of zero, rendering it unusable on Windows.

Our AXE027 cables use only genuine FTDI parts.
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
Welcome back hippy. You were obviously missed.

Genuine FTDI
Best of the best except for the cost. No external inverter required


Fake FTDI Chips/Adapters:
These do not have a writable EEPROM and therefore cannot be programmed via FT_PROG to invert the Serial I/O lines as required by Picaxe. An external inverter will therefore be required for Picaxe Programming. While these fakes generally work OK. I will not use them as do not want to financially support the International Criminals that have stolen the FTDI brand / logo and etched it onto an inferior chip.

CH340:
Used successfully on probably millions of devices including Arduino Clones. Break signaling is supported. Will require an external inverter for use as a Picaxe Programmer. Good bang for the buck at about $1- 2 each from various suppliers. Come in several versions among them being the 340G, 340T, 340N. A CH340 with an 50c inverter IC is likely the cheapest way to make a Picaxe Programmer. If "cheap" is the primary specification for a project then a CH340 may fit the bill.

CP2102 (Silabs):
Work great but requires an external inverter for Picaxe Programming. An inverter IC works well to invert the signals as well as to shift the 3.3v logic level up to 5.0V. Less expensive than FTDI

CP2104 (Silabs):
Work great but requires an external inverter for Picaxe Programming. An inverter IC works well to invert the signals as well as to shift the 3.3v logic level up to 5.0V. Less expensive than FTDI

Break Signaling:
Break Signaling is a method whereby software can tell the chip/adapter to send an active signal on the chips TX line for (12 * BitTime)
BitTime(us) is (1,000,000 / BaudRate) so at 4800 baud .... BreakTime = (1000000/4800) * 12 ... or 2.5 ms.

With the signal "inverted" a break looks like a 2.5 ms high pulse @ 4800 baud. This 2.5 ms high pulse tells the Picaxe to enter programming mode.

To test if an adapter supports break signaling, open up a terminal app, set it to 4800 baud then send a break with the app. Using a cheap logic analyzer or scope you should see a ~2.5 ms pulse on the adapters TX pin.

Fake chips are common from unreliable sources as well as from unscrupulous dealers on *bay and *mazon. Even CP2102 and possibly CH340 are being counterfeited nowadays. If you are unsure if your device supports Break signaling, do the test.

( I did not include Prolific adapters as I have had nothing but trouble with them)

Goey
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
My trusty XP system finally crashed and burned so I have got with the programme and am using Windows 10 as my primary home system. I will work my way through the sack of adapters I have acquired over the years and see what works and doesn't. for me..

I don't recall any problems with Prolific but that could be down to their being older versions.
Welcome to Windows 10 and Prolific: an unfortunate combination! The old Prolific-based leads work fine with the old Prolific drivers (I have a stash of old drivers that I can call on).

The problem is that Windows 10's updates are a law unto themself. W10 regularly checks that drivers are the lastest "official" version and, seeing an outdated driver that does work, automatically replaces it with the latest version which has been especially prepared not to work (with old Prolific chips). Sure, you can replace the driver with one that does work but you have to do that every few days, which becomes a bit tedious after about the 20th time. :(

And, guess what, hippy? Microsoft is in the final stages of testing Windows 11!
 

papaof2

Senior Member
"And, guess what, hippy? Microsoft is in the final stages of testing Windows 11! "

Doesn't that mean that they'll stop twiddling with Windows 10 at some point soon? Then Win 10 won't replace the working driver with the "latest" driver - there should be a "Do not touch" flag in Win 10 (there are flags for everything else) so you can tell MicroStupid that you know what works. Maybe with an option of replacing the old driver for 10 minutes for testing but saving it for reinstallation as needed? Nah, they're not that user-oriented.

Microsoft's handling of driver versions is about as intelligent as Apple designing an iPhone (the 4?) with an antenna that was external and directly in the path of the user's hand. Remember them telling people "You're holding it wrong?" And eventually offering free cases?

The laptop monitoring my solar power system runs Windows 7 because I never have to deal with an update that breaks something. That's the same reason I still use an XP laptop for my fiction writing - none of my (as in written by me) utility programs are flagged by the current XP anti-virus/anti-malware software as "unknown" or "possibly suspicious" executables. I went through multiple rounds of that with Avira and Avast back when XP was the state-of-the-art OS. Me sending them executables because their anti-virus software had flagged my code as having some obscure virus signature - they were just a bit too quick to say "These XXX bytes always define the ABCD virus". Nope, because I would (unintentionally) create that byte pattern in simple utility programs written in Visual Basic 6. I still use some of those utilities under Windows 10. I use a lot of older software under Windows 10 because things like WS_FTP95 can ignore/bypass most of Windows 10's "You don't have permission to write there" and I can easily move/copy almost anything wherever I want it to be. I think "crotchety curmudgeon" might be an appropriate description of my relationship with MS ;-)
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Break Signaling is a method whereby software can tell the chip/adapter to send an active signal on the chips TX line for (12 * BitTime)
BitTime(us) is (1,000,000 / BaudRate) so at 4800 baud .... BreakTime = (1000000/4800) * 12 ... or 2.5 ms.
That is a common definition but it has generally been accepted as 'any period longer than where the stop bit should be' which is what actually happened when a physical cable was unplugged, the connection broken.

Most OS's support turning it on and turning it off, but some will offer a timed pulse. Python has an entertaining bug in PySerial where the timing parameter is ignored so whether it is a break depends on the baud rate being used.

The Break Signal Download Initiation from PE5 and PE6 is a few seconds, time to get a PICAXE turned on, up and running, and seeing the signal before it disappears. Hence the delay from clicking download to saying "hardware not found".

And, guess what, hippy? Microsoft is in the final stages of testing Windows 11!
It put a smile on my face when my "This PC doesn't support Windows 11" arrived a couple of days ago. I have had this PC for a while but not really used it it in anger given XP suited me fine, was completely locked down despite having had no updates apart from for WannaCry.

Unfortunately catastrophic hardware failure, memory or CPU overheating, and it was becoming a losing battle to keep it usable. The amazing thing is I never had a Blue Screen of Death over the past three or more years.

At least I'm being kept entertained in having to learn the tricks of the trade all over again. The only thying I really miss is my MS-DOS editor which ran at the command line prompt. That's 16-bit so won't run. Same too for a really ancient version of PaintShopPro which did all I ever needed.

Windows 11 looks to me like a 'look and feel' change, just more lipstick, little new that I am interested in. The ability to run Android Apps is interesting but I believe that's planned rather than delivered, and wouldn't be enough to make 11 'must have'.

Doesn't that mean that they'll stop twiddling with Windows 10 at some point soon?
Possibly. I believe Windows 7 is also end of life but that keeps getting updates, though mostly Security and BitDefender.

We have another three years and that might get extended if people prove reluctant to upgrade to 11. I thnk most people will upgarde if they can or end up sticking with Windows 7 or 10 like they did with XP until they buy a new machine with it preinstalled.
 

papaof2

Senior Member
I keep replacing my old Dell laptop and the "new" ones (still a D620/D630, about $130US) come with Win 10 - but on an ancient and painfully s-l-o-w hard drive. I just move the SSD from my dead/dying Dell to the new-to-me Dell and keep going. I may now have enough dead laptops to be able to build one from spare parts ;-) Nice thing is the replacement 9 cell batteries are relatively inexpensive - $24.37US delivered last month (eBay) and I get a lot of writing hours on a full charge.

We have two Dell laptops running Win 10 - my wife's and my "I know I'll have to upgrade someday" laptop. It works and I have the software I use the most on it but I still don't like the interface and some of the built-in "helps" are just as annoying as that animated paperclip was (I've turned off a lot of that).
 

lbenson

Senior Member
really ancient version of PaintShopPro which did all I ever needed
How old? My version is 2001, and I'm still using it almost daily. It's worth preserving in my opinion. I don't remember whether I had to do anything particular to get it to run on win10.
 

PhilHornby

Senior Member
I can sympathise with where FTDI were coming from...
... The problem with their solution is they underestimated how many believed those selling 'fake chips' should be allowed to do that.
But they chose to punish the customers of those peddling false chips - me being one of them. I had no idea the modules I bought were fake. I will never forgive them - I will not buy anything containing an FTDI component again, if I can at all help it.
ZD Net's claim that "FTDI's surprise new driver reprograms the USB PID to 0, killing the chips instantly" isn't actually true, nor are they "bricked".
They symptom I encountered, was that every read from the device, returned the string "this is a fake" or words to that effect. It was actually still usable, with ancient drivers (like the ones Rev Ed ship ;) )

Fake FTDI Chips/Adapters:

These do not have a writable EEPROM and therefore cannot be programmed via FT_PROG to invert the Serial I/O lines as required by Picaxe. An external inverter will therefore be required for Picaxe Programming.
The ones I bought were perfect working editions. Who knows, maybe they weren't actually fake and it's just a bug in FTDI's driver? :unsure:
 
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hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
But they chose to punish the customers of those peddling false chips - me being one of them. I had no idea the modules I bought were fake. I will never forgive them - I will not buy anything containing an FTDI component again, if I can at all help it.
Yes, the way they did it wasn't great, could have been better.

They appear to have taken the view that anyone buying cheap FTDI modules would have known they were fake because the only way they could be that cheap would be if they were fake; like the the "£5 Rolex" et al.

The 'victim punishing' is a tricky issue. In some jurisdictions fake and counterfeit items can be confiscated with no compensation. The victim is expected to take it up with whoever supplied them with the item.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
How old? My version is 2001, and I'm still using it almost daily. It's worth preserving in my opinion. I don't remember whether I had to do anything particular to get it to run on win10.
I had the 3.1 version from 1995, probably for Win 95 - https://winworldpc.com/product/paint-shop-pro/3x

That page suggests there's a 32-bit version but Win 10 won't let 'setup.exe' run. Maybe setup is 16-bit and if I can get it extracted I can copy the files over. That seems to be the recommended approach for VB6.

I'll also have a look around to see if there is something which suits me, some other image editing software which doesn't do a lot more than I need.
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
But they chose to punish the customers of those peddling false chips - me being one of them. I had no idea the modules I bought were fake. I will never forgive them - I will not buy anything containing an FTDI component again, if I can at all help it.

They symptom I encountered, was that every read from the device, returned the string "this is a fake" or words to that effect. It was actually still usable, with ancient drivers (like the ones Rev Ed ship ;) )



The ones I bought were perfect working editions. Who knows, maybe they weren't actually fake and it's just a bug in FTDI's driver? :unsure:

Fakes/Counterfeits seem to work perfectly until you try to use advanced features , like changing the power descriptor, or inverting the I/Os via FT_PROG. If you got that message my guess is that they were mostl likely fake/counterfeit.

How to identify a Fake FTDI Adapter:

1.) The price of the adapter is inconsistent with the bulk cost of a single genuine FTDI chip. This should cause suspicion. The least expensive genuine FTDI adapter that I have come across runs about $10.99 US. A price that is "too good to be true" usually is.

2.) The FT_PROG utility cannot change any of the settings in the chip's EEPROM ( Cannot invert I/0's). This is not because FTDI intentionally prevents writing to fakes, but rather that most, if not all fakes do not have a writable EEPROM.

3.) If you purchased 2 or more adapters and they both have the same serial number - they are most likely fakes. The serial number can be "read" with FT_PROG

Here is an example of a fake ..... Fake FDTI Adapter

In the description the seller states that the chip is not Genuine. However the chip is etched with the FTDI logo making it a fake. This device will not work as programmer for Picaxe unless an external inverter is used. However it will generally work where non-inverted serial coms is used ( idle high)
The chip's EEPROM is not writable.

Here is an example of an adapter with a Genuine FTDI chip. .... Genuine FTDI adapter

I have both of these adapters and can confirm that the first is fake and the second is genuine.

Goey
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
Another little known adapter is actually manufactured by FTDI and is the UMFT234XF ..... UMFT234XF DataSheet

This adapter uses the FT234XD IC and works great. Signals can be inverted for Picaxe via FTPROG. It is tiny with a very small footprint. The only issue is that none are available until 11/04/2021 (via Mouser). Cost is about $7.10 ea from Mouser ( + Shipping).

I have had one of these for over a year with no issues. The TTL level is 3.3V but works fine with Picaxe at 5V. The IC has 5V tolerant inputs and Supports Break Signaling. ( I use a 4K7 resistor from PIC TX To Adapter RX)

Goey
 

PhilHornby

Senior Member
Fakes/Counterfeits seem to work perfectly until you try to use advanced features , like changing the power descriptor, or inverting the I/Os via FT_PROG. If you got that message my guess is that they were most likely fake/counterfeit.
Up until the driver change, they worked as expected/as I needed them to. I'd inverted the I/O successfully and used them to program Pixaxes. I can't remember if the serial numbers were identical, but I think I would have noticed if they were...
The Device id was definitely changeable - because I ultimately reprogrammed them to 0xDEAD ;)

Here is an example of a fake ..... Fake FDTI Adapter
...and it's "Amazon's Choice" for "ftdi" :(

I think it's best to just play safe and avoid FTDI products. Once bitten, twice shy ... and never forgotten.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
I think it's best to just play safe and avoid FTDI products.
I can't agree with that, though I appreciate you did not like the way FTDI dealt with the issue of fake chips, and that has turned you against the company.

The problem is that also makes innocent victims out of those who use genuine FTDI chips in their product, like ourselves with the AXE027, and reputable dealers who only supply genuine FTDI parts, those who would replace, repair, refund or compensate if a customer ever ended up receiving a component which was fake.
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
I think it's best to just play safe and avoid FTDI products. Once bitten, twice shy ... and never forgotten.
I can't agree with that either.

FTDI are the best available IMO. I play it safe by sourcing critical components/devices from reputable distributors/dealers ... instead of looking for "bargains" from sources that are known to sell counterfeits and fakes. I imagine most everyone here knows the dubious sources I am referring to.

Goey
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
I think "crotchety curmudgeon" might be an appropriate description of my relationship with MS ;-)
I expect that applies to many people who are of our age or also came to love XP, consider it the best OS Microsoft ever produced. I suspect most of us would have been happy with Windows 7, 10 and 11, if only they had kept the Classic Shell theme.

Getting VB6 to run on Win 10 turned out to be a doddle which may be of help to those who still have VB6 Apps they would like to keep working on rather than porting. I simply found a Backup CD, copied the entire "X:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio" tree to a new folder on Win 10, located VB6.EXE under "VB98", set Compatibility to Windows 7, set Run as Admistrator, used "Send To Desktop" to create a shortcut, and it just works. Registration seems to be held in the .EXE or a .DLL so came pre-registered, with SP6 included.

For PSP 3.11, VB3 for the amusement value, and other 16-bit code - OTVDM/WINEVDM For The Win. With a special shout out to Edward Mendelson (http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/otvdm.html) for providing an installer.

For email I went with Claws-Mail which is the closest match with Outlook Express I found. And of course Classic Shell to get something more akin to the classic Start Menu. And Microsoft themselves provide a classic WinFile file manager.

So, Hippy Status 2.1 : Relatively content.

Edit : Corrected quote attribution
 
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PhilHornby

Senior Member
Getting VB6 to run on Win 10 turned out to be a doddle which may be of help to those who still have VB6 Apps they would like to keep working on rather than porting. I simply found a Backup CD, copied the entire "X:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio" tree to a new folder on Win 10
Was that a backup of a Windows XP machine?

I'd struggled to install VB6 on Windows 10, so I've been running it in a Hyper-V virtual m/c, which is clunky. I did find a commercial solution to the problem, in the form of a new installer - but I didn't want to pay for it ;)

I've just had another google and found this (free) solution.

It's fixated with fixing problems with an old version of Java - a problem I don't have - but the section on disabling ADO seems to have done the trick. (I'll find out, when I've completed the mandatory reboot)

For email I went with Claws-Mail which is the closest match with Outlook Express I found.
I'm clinging on to Windows Live Mail 2012, which is not too dissimilar in appear to OE - but was discontinued long ago :(
 
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