Guideline target date for 20X2
- Thread starter nbw
- Start date
Andrew Cowan
Senior Member
As far as I know, technical is just waiting for microchip's order to arrive.
This could happen any day. If you send an email to techsupplies, they may be able to arrange some bulk discont on X2s.
A
This could happen any day. If you send an email to techsupplies, they may be able to arrange some bulk discont on X2s.
A
inglewoodpete
Senior Member
MicroZed in Australia offers quantity discounts on orders over 25 items but that's a few more than 5 
hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
20X2 schedules depend on Microchip putting their device into production and making it available to the public and as they will not give a public statement on when that will be Rev-Ed cannot either.
When Microchip starts production and Rev-Ed have production devices, the normal in-house testing, beta testing and update phases will follow. This will hopefully only take a short time but there is no schedule for that as it depends on what issues arise, how complicated those issues are, how many cycles of analyse, fix and re-test need to occur.
The bottom line is; don't expect 20X2 chips to be avalable in-store the minute Microchip labels the device as "in production". Rev-Ed will provide 20X2 schedule updates as appropriate.
When Microchip starts production and Rev-Ed have production devices, the normal in-house testing, beta testing and update phases will follow. This will hopefully only take a short time but there is no schedule for that as it depends on what issues arise, how complicated those issues are, how many cycles of analyse, fix and re-test need to occur.
The bottom line is; don't expect 20X2 chips to be avalable in-store the minute Microchip labels the device as "in production". Rev-Ed will provide 20X2 schedule updates as appropriate.
Righto. Was just after a finger in the air, speculative, no guarantees or commitments, guess... 3rd quarter 2009, 4th, 2010, 2011...
Is there some way of determining if Microchip have signed off that they will actually produce the chip? Thinking of the way my 5 year old doesn't like bright shiny things dangled under nose and then whisked away (naughty Mum!).
Is there some way of determining if Microchip have signed off that they will actually produce the chip? Thinking of the way my 5 year old doesn't like bright shiny things dangled under nose and then whisked away (naughty Mum!).
I too am looking forward to playing with a 20x2, but I will probably wait until after the first lot are out and beta tested. I have been stung with ‘wrong firmware’ problems before and would like to avoid it happening again if possible. It would be nice if firmware updates could be downloaded from the website and burned at home.
Is there any place I can lookup the most recent firmware revisions? Can I guarantee that when I order a Picaxe, it will definitely carry the most recent firmware?
Is there any place I can lookup the most recent firmware revisions? Can I guarantee that when I order a Picaxe, it will definitely carry the most recent firmware?
@boriz, good point - if 'old stock' is shipped, perhaps some way of reflashing it would be good. Might be getting a bit complex, but perhaps proof of purchase emailed to TS, they factor that into a code, and a later version of Editor allows an older version to be reflashed. That way, protecting that preciously secret blue smoke inside Or, older versions advertised as such and sold at marginally reduced prices to reflect any 'inferiorities' they may have compared to their younger siblings.
Or, older versions advertised as such and sold at marginally reduced prices to reflect any 'inferiorities' they may have compared to their younger siblings.SilentScreamer
Senior Member
The moment Revolution Education do that the bootstrap program can be derived by hacking and therefore downloaded onto a blank PIC removing all means of them to make money.
Revolution never ship out of date revisions, as soon as a new release is made all shelf stock is always re-flashed.
We should have already received stock of the 14K22 now by Microchip's first given delivery dates. However the release has been delayed, but we do expect it to be only a few weeks rather than months before stock is available!
We should have already received stock of the 14K22 now by Microchip's first given delivery dates. However the release has been delayed, but we do expect it to be only a few weeks rather than months before stock is available!
I doubt that Rev-Ed would offer that, but they could provide a means for the Programming Editor to download and reflash - at least on the bigger chips (14/18 and up). I would expect that the chips would need some additional code to be able to reflash via a serial connection. Maybe the new chips would be identified with an "R" suffix to indicate "reflashable": 18XR, 20X2R?
One potential competitor included that in their editor from the start (18 pin and up chips).
John
Perhaps a modification to the PE, so that a direct internet connection > PE > Picaxe, might allow ‘live’ updating without compromising security. The PC > Picaxe serial connection works both ways, so the Picaxe can identify itself as genuine (perhaps a unique code) immediately before the transfer begins and only a small part of the new firmware is buffered at any one moment. Just an idea. I’m sure nothing is completely secure anyway.
The problem is postage costs. A 14M costs me £4.83 including £2.50 shipping + tax to purchase from www.techsupplies.co.uk. Would I pay £2.50 (or more) to return a 14M so that they can replace it with an almost identical one? That would mean that I had effectively paid at least £7.33 ($10.87), for a £2 chip. And since (I assume) Techsupplies will cover the shipping price for the 14M sent back to me, they will have lost any profit made on the original transaction. In fact they will be significantly down on the deal, and so will I. It’s just not a viable solution.
Some method must be found for online firmware updates!
The problem is postage costs. A 14M costs me £4.83 including £2.50 shipping + tax to purchase from www.techsupplies.co.uk. Would I pay £2.50 (or more) to return a 14M so that they can replace it with an almost identical one? That would mean that I had effectively paid at least £7.33 ($10.87), for a £2 chip. And since (I assume) Techsupplies will cover the shipping price for the 14M sent back to me, they will have lost any profit made on the original transaction. In fact they will be significantly down on the deal, and so will I. It’s just not a viable solution.
Some method must be found for online firmware updates!
SilentScreamer
Senior Member
All these firmware updates that update via the download lead are near impossible. To be able to do a true firmware update a programmer must be used (else what if the bug that is being updated is within the code that allows an update). Firmware updates will never be viable, in my opinion, as the moment the update leaves the revolution education servers the source can be "hacked". This is the fundamental flaw with all DRM or copy protection, the moment you release the file you have no control over what is done with it. Any file that can be legitimately accessed can be illegitimately accessed.
"The only truly secure system is locked away under several miles of concrete with no power, or data connections."
(I know the above quote is incorrect however I am doing it from memory)
"The only truly secure system is locked away under several miles of concrete with no power, or data connections."
(I know the above quote is incorrect however I am doing it from memory
)"(else what if the bug that is being updated is within the code that allows an update)"
You're right of course, but I would consider that a special case, very unlikely to ever occur and if it did, then the postal system is always there as a backup. For the vast majority of updates, only the ‘command interpreting machine’ will need modifying. It must be a trivial matter to isolate this part of the system from the bootstrap and comms part.
I have several PIC programmers, and would be happy to use one for Picaxe firmware updating (it’s not hard to build one from scratch), though I’m not convinced that it can’t be done with the normal download lead.
Additional security (encryption or whatever) would use up more program space, but as has been noted in other threads, the X2 parts have plenty.
How about .... A one off executable could be produced for each update. It contains the encrypted firmware plus the comms and security program. You download it, run it, use your unique one time access code that has been emailed to you, and the update program sends the encrypted update to the Picaxe through the programming lead where the internal decryption takes place. There you go. Completely safe
You're right of course, but I would consider that a special case, very unlikely to ever occur and if it did, then the postal system is always there as a backup. For the vast majority of updates, only the ‘command interpreting machine’ will need modifying. It must be a trivial matter to isolate this part of the system from the bootstrap and comms part.
I have several PIC programmers, and would be happy to use one for Picaxe firmware updating (it’s not hard to build one from scratch), though I’m not convinced that it can’t be done with the normal download lead.
Additional security (encryption or whatever) would use up more program space, but as has been noted in other threads, the X2 parts have plenty.
How about .... A one off executable could be produced for each update. It contains the encrypted firmware plus the comms and security program. You download it, run it, use your unique one time access code that has been emailed to you, and the update program sends the encrypted update to the Picaxe through the programming lead where the internal decryption takes place. There you go. Completely safe
demonicpicaxeguy
Senior Member
in theory the ability to update firmware out in the field is a good one ... but
given the various ways people have setup their download circuit and along with it various errors and problems this forum has seen, one can imagine the weekly "i've tried to update the firmware on my picaxe and it doesn't work" thread...
given the various ways people have setup their download circuit and along with it various errors and problems this forum has seen, one can imagine the weekly "i've tried to update the firmware on my picaxe and it doesn't work" thread...
inglewoodpete
Senior Member
Which is great if you purchase your PICAXEs directly from Rev-Ed. Overseas distributors could be holding old stock, unless there is a return-for-reflashing policy. I suspect not.
Resellers are in a different boat again. I have seen the contents of the 'PICAXE' drawer of my local supplier who, I presume, get their chips from the Australian distributor. There are some ancient critters in that drawer!
Distributors can, and do, return shelf stock for free re-programming. As can any customer with an older version they want to update - simply post it back to us and we will reflash and return.
westaust55
Moderator
They (in Perth) still advertise the superceded 18A as well . . . .
hippy
Ex-Staff (retired)
There's nothing inherently wrong with selling superseded devices like the 18A that I can see.
If that's what the customer chooses to buy then so be it, and superseded devices often attract a higher premium because they are no longer in production and it can make commercial sense to do so.
If that's what the customer chooses to buy then so be it, and superseded devices often attract a higher premium because they are no longer in production and it can make commercial sense to do so.