Gadget to make speech an elevator each floor and up /down status

sedeap

Senior Member
Hi pals:

I made several gadgets until now, but the tricky part in this one is... everything !!!

  • Cannot mess with the infraestructure or installation (Safe & Insurance Limitations)
  • Cannot grab power from lines ( maybe a Ni-Mh batt with solar panel to recharge from inside light )
  • Must be one SMDevice like an Add-On (more like a leech...)
  • Cannot be screwed to any part of elevator box (must be some magnetically or clamped or vacuum supported)
  • Must be removable but not stolen by rascals or "smoked" ones.
  • Must be a non-expensive development (not too much)
  • Must be small enough to fit everywhere available
  • Must speech floor number when reach it and the status of it's way (going up or down)
  • A plus must be a non closed door reminder

Yeah... sound like a MAZE ! ! !!

Well... any (serious) clues and suggestions are WELCOMED !

CJ
 
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Haku

Senior Member
A mall inexensive indoor solar powered speaking box that can't be screwed into place but mustn't be stolen.

Sounds like someone wants you to build them an impossible object!

I wouldn't attempt solar power, not enough light and too much of an energy requirement.
Powerful neodynium magnets for holding it on may be the best way if there's no way of clamping it to something, so long as the surface isn't aluminium or stainless steel.
A speech IC or an SD mp3 playback module with small amp should do for speech ok.

How is the device going to determine the floor it's on and the direction when travelling?
 

srnet

Senior Member
"How is the device going to determine the floor it's on and the direction when travelling?"

Indeed, and be reliable, with no interaction with the mechanics or electrics of lift.

Whoever comes up with the idea for that, and can make it work should keep it to themselves and patent the idea, rather than giving it away to someone else to make money out of it.
 

Andrew Cowan

Senior Member
I think the easiest solution to knowing what floor it is on is to make something that sticks over the lift's LED floor readout - then use LDRs/phototransistors to read the floor number from that.

A
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
My suggestion ( if this is supposed to be a paying job) is to turn it down.

Looks like a money loser in regards to development cost where the stipulation
is ... "Must be a non-expensive development".

Time will drive the development cost and this cannot be done overnight.
 
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sedeap

Senior Member
Taming Maze...

So... the MP3 module looks like a winner... to speech part (Thanks Haku...)
to get feedback from floor number... maybe some tag to read... or barcode on door frames of each floor
to get power to keep batt... some solar cell... or some coil on device and magnets in doors frames of each floor
or even a micro turbine near the extractor fan... to "milking" the air flow...

they say: cannot be messed with box elevator structure or moving parts - or - power lines inside moving parts (insurance Limitations)

Maybe later can catch more inspiration...

:rolleyes: Thanks pals 4 ideas to start...

CJ
 

papaof2

Senior Member
The up/down detection could probably be done with a photo-detector of some type that monitors the up/down arrow (often part of the floor number display).

Typical up/down displays consist of 5 elements: vertical bar with two "wings" for up and two for down. Monitor one up wing and one down wing to get the current direction. If neither is illuminated, the elevator is idle.

John

To detect direction when the elevator is moving, you would use an accelerometer. As passenger elevators limit the acceleration to a comfortable level, a 1G capable accelerometer should be adequate.
 

Janne

Senior Member
I'm with srnet on this. Calculate first what amount of power is available from the elevator light with a reasonable sized solar panel and then think what could be made to work from this power.. It only looks quite bright inside an elevator, because a human eye has excellent dynamic range.
 

srnet

Senior Member
How many lifts are we talking about one or more than one ?

If more than one are they all identical in structure and type or are they all different ?
 

vttom

Senior Member
Seems to me there's a fatal flaw in the "going up"/"going down" announcement bit.

If you can't connect to the control system of the elevator, then you can't know in which direction the elevator is going to move until it starts to move. Once it's started moving, any occupants will be able to feel which direction it's moving, making the announcemount of "going up" or "going down" completely moot. Isn't the point of the announcement to let people know in which direction the elevator is going to move BEFORE the doors close so they can be sure it's moving in the direction they want to go?
 

sedeap

Senior Member
(-.-)

Ok pals...

This gadget seems to will be...:

For 2 elevators in start, "twins" and mirrored control panels and doors (one per box) close to the "between" column.
Not too much light inside box (4 small dichroic lamps) that make a spotlight but not " spread " near it so no solar panels work...
No direction arrows in the panel, just a 7 segment red display, inside control panel (not tampering allowed)
So accelerometer or IR reader must be the choice...
For up/Dwn status... same as above, since not automatic doors, and not previous call in memory... just manually close the doors (collapsible type) and push a desired floor button to go. (old lift design)
This gadget seems to be for Blindman's working there, but not want a mess with the insurance company if some happen with elevators...
(As far as I know, the Lift manufacturer / installator offer to them one talking device at 1000 US dollars each, changing their control panel box)
Is an old office building with old administrator with an old thinkabout mental process.
Looks more promising to offer the gadget to the lift installation company...
.
So... I keep thinking for a solution, and any new ideas will be welcomed.

:cool:
 

Marcwolf

Senior Member
Hi there.
Ok - lets put the brain in gear on this one.

Height.. as in which floor.
Use a simple RFID reader attached to the outside of the lift and have a tag at each floor giving the floor number. Have several tags on each floor to cater for variations of the lift due to weight.

Using an off the shelf barometric sensor you calibrate it on the ground floor as 'sea level'. Then using an estimate that each floor is approx 9 feet you calculate the height from ground level in feet and then divide by 9.

Alternatively - put a laser distance pointer under the lift in the shaft and use bluetooth to send it's reading back to the main unit. Taking into account the basement area for utilities.


Ok.. Up or down
Accellerometer should handle that easily with code to interpret that if the lift is on top floor it can only go down and visa-versa on the lowest floor.

Door Open or closed.
IR led neear top if the left shining on the doors or a reflective stip on the doors. If reflection to IR sensor the door is close, none door is open.

Speech
MP3 Player - enought said.

Power.. Tricky.. But - how about induction with a coil running AC at the ground floow. A coil on the lift converts this to AC which is rectifies and fed to recharagble batteries.

Or.. Small generator with wheel on side of lift. As lift goes up or down it spins the wheel and charges batteries.

Likewise a small wind generator using the air movement of the lift (Feel the breeze coming from the closed lift doors when waiting for the lift)


Hope this gives some idea's
Dave
 
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Haku

Senior Member
Barometric is an interesting idea but not reliable enough. I got one of those TI Chronos wristwatches which has a barometric sensor in and the apparent height above sea level changes with atmospheric pressure whilst the watch is left in one spot. Just sitting here I noticed the height reading go up by 2 meters in the last 10 minutes.

Without access to the lift's own electronics and the need for the device not to interfere with building regulations or insurance policies you're in for an uphill struggle.
 

srnet

Senior Member
Well I would assume you cant run trunking insidethe lift either, so how do you connect all stuff to generate power, sense the floor\height all without connecting wires (can't drill holes in the lift either) ????

With a lift, there could well be pressure variances, door open\closed, going up down the shaft, and even in air on the seperate floors,so a pressure sensor seemsan unlikely solution.

I would also assume that access to the lift shaft itself (to fix sensors etc), is not going to be greeted with "sure, want to borrow a rope ?"

$1000 seems like a bargain.
 

sedeap

Senior Member
Maze half solved...

Hi pals...
I feel mi brain cells dancing in my Skull... wow... that device make me think alot...
I got more fun thinking stuffs the last couple of days than the last 6 months !
My GF tell me if I want to become crazy trying to catch the Holy Grial of electronics... since the power must come from nowhere, also the data, and over all that, must TALK !!! ...hahahaha....
Well... I start to look at the cost of modules and readers... and my niece show me one little celular charger that work hanged out of car/bus window and with a propeller spin a dynamo base... amazing! A real Air-charger !!!
But the induction coil when reach Ground level floor, or linear dynamo in the up/dwn path with magnets, and a coil in the device, make me feel more comfy.
By reading the floor number, RFID tags sound like winner... or one very long strip (ruler kind), mounted aside floor doors, with tiny reflective spots in groups to "keep the count" with one IR led and a pulsecount, when elevator traveling the path...

OK... I keep thinking... and Thanks to all those pals that help me with this....

:rolleyes:
 

Dippy

Moderator
These seems a really difficult project with the conditions in Post No.1.
I can't see how you can make this easily removable yet vandal/thief proof.

I can't see how accelreometers or barometric pressure sensors would be reliable.
There would be all sorts of occasions where this could be easily fooled and the slightest unreliability means either a site-visit or giving up.

Sensors on the shaft internals (reflective/inductive) or connection to the lift electronics are the only reliable solutions but this goes against the criteria and , bluntly, would the owner be happy with an amateur fiddling with the system?

Power supply? Wind, solar + reliability/vandal-proof ? -- good luck. ;)

I tend to concur with some of the suggestions above i.e. give up. It's an excellent mental exercise, but too difficult given the criteria and the limited access and skills. You are asking for industrial-grade reliability with hobby-grade resources. I think you could regret this project if you persue it given the information so far. I applaud the enthusiasm but I don't want to see you making a big mistake remembering that other people may rely on this.
But good luck if you do.
 

sedeap

Senior Member
Taming the beast...

Hi Dippy:

Certainly is a good mental exercise... and a good posibility to make some bucks after all.
The whole idea is not break any Insurance or safety Rules...
Since this isn't a critical device and no harm or human injury can be done with it's malfunction (maybe one blind guy take the wrong floor number, but nothing to regret) since this is a reminder only, thats why don't want mess with Panel inside elevator box (even if it was be available to do) nor buttons or door clamp switches.
And the voice reminder can't open doors or stop elevator, so if someone push 7 floor button, the elevator go to 7, no matters what the voice say.
Also don't want to do Rappel inside the lift shaft to hang on sensors or the device itself... I'm not that crazy yet.
That's why the whole gadget must be Add-on leech type housing... and same for tags, detectors or references.
This elevator boxes (and mostly others) have some clearance space at outside box aside door vane, so a device can be placed there if is enough flat and can be clamped to the external hinge reinforcement of jailbox door frame. (and a spring hook, as safe latch)
I try to take some photos today, just for visual references.
My main concern right now is the size "of the beast" and power to keep battery healthy.

.
:cool:
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
As this seems to be some kind of aid for a blind person then it may be best to ask them what they actually need, want or would like. That could considerably simplify the project.

A unit that person carries and recharges daily will likely be easier than an installed unit with all the difficulty that creates.

Blind people seem to be very aware of their location and environment but it is understandable that lifts may be disorientating so perhaps all they need is something to make things clearer. A device which simply beeps as it passes each floor may be enough to let them identify where they are from where they started.

The one thing we don't know about the proposed project is what problem it is attempting to solve.
 

sedeap

Senior Member
Taming the beast...

Hi hippy:

Try to solve my pocket situation... hahahaha
Ok... seriously... Some new regulations here in the City, for impaired ones (Blinds, Wheel chairs, Limps, hand cane, etc.) must be contemplated as workforce, so some solutions for aid them or comfort, must be taken.
Like bathrooms at office level or ground level without stairs, big enough to use in wheelchair, automatic lights (and in halls or corridors too) and regulated desk height, ramps in block corners, traffic lights in audio knocker or buzzer (I made some of those... remember?) and now, elevators too, some installer company of lifts provide ticking ones, and speech talk ones (inside panel), but prices are high yet. So this building administrator talk to me about do some not so expensive as alternative solution.

C U pal ...
 

vttom

Senior Member
Here's a thought....

Rather than installing the gadget within the elevator car itself, what if you installed a gadget on each floor which announces the floor when it senses the elevator doors opening? Furthermore, if you sense which of the 2 call buttons (up/down) outside the elevator goes from on to off, you can also work out whether the elevator will be going up or going down and announce that BEFORE people have a change to board the elevator car.

The only drawback is that your cost will be proportional to the number of floors (as opposed to the number of elevator cars).
 

boriz

Senior Member
Idea for power: Rechargeable battery, charged by a small generator driven through gears by a friction wheel pressed up against the door. So as the door opens, and closes, the battery is topped up. Same friction wheel can detect door-open condition.
 

Paix

Senior Member
I would think that a friction wheel against the door would be problematic, even if it could be fixed firmly/permanently. I would think that there would be insufficient prolonged activity to give a meaningful charge, but that's just my guess on it, not based on any calculations or experience.

More change could be had from the rise and fall of the lift, but friction devices seem to be inadmissible. Is there a chimney effect in the lift shaft that could possibly drive a turbine of some sort, even when the lift is static, but maybe not on the ground/basement floor level (plantar fascia). Such an arrangement would imply an external location, possibly on top of the lift car, with audio through an existing grille. That might be a bit of a bummer regarding other car direction predicting and door closure sensors. External direction sensors for up and down could take the form of a couple of vanes (wings) operated by air pressure, but as has already been said, the occupant is likely to know the direction well before the indication.

When it comes to the bit, the Building Administrator is seeking to take the cheapest available option, which he perceives as yourself with a project almost seemingly constrained to an impossible level.

A new view is needed. The $1,000 lift company option (they hold all the cards in this game- equipment, certification, not-voiding the building insurance etc.) or the eventual penalty fine for non-compliance with the new regulations. If the penalty was set right, then as I think either Hippy, Dippy or someone else said, $1.000 might seem to be an attractive price tag.

I don't wish to be a nay sayer, but the odds do seem to be staked against you. Buena suerte.
 
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sedeap

Senior Member
Taming the beast...

Hi:

@vttom:
Interesting option, will chat with Admin about that...

@Paix:
Gracias amigo, lo de las ruedas no me parece que vaya a funcionar tampoco, pero no deja de ser una opcion mas...
Y si, el administrador quiere lo mas barato posible sin complicarse con el seguro de accidentes o algo fuera de normativas.
Lo ideal creo que va a ser armar un plato de bobina y cargarlo al pasar el ascensor o al quedar en Planta Baja, como inductor
Otra opcion es hacer un cargador solar y en Planta baja colocar una luz direccional fuerte que encienda cuando la caja del ascensor quede alineada.


And to all other people who drop some ideas here, Thanks!

Seems to be a solar powered gadget, outside a lift box, so when reach Ground level, turn on a light in spot to solar plate, placed inline on shaft wall...
Or an inductive pad couple, like a open transformer dish, or a flat coil to retrieve pulses from a strip of magnets in floor doors frames, even this can be used as counter for floor number calculation...

So... will continue taming this beast... LOL

:rolleyes:
 
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