Fuse placement within a circuit

BrendanP

Senior Member
I'm drawing up the controller board for my stock feeder. What is best engineering practice when it comes to fuse placement?

I have a gell cell charger designed around the well known UC3906. The charger can be run from either a PV panel or a mains powered to circa. 15VDC output plug pack.

Should I have a fuse on the INPUT of the battery charger circuit in case of problems with the plug pack or short in the charger circuit ? Or should I only have a fuse on the output of the battery in case of a short in the main part of the pcb? Or should I fuse both?
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
Simple rule. If in doubt, fuse it!
I'd have a fuse right up close to the battery and one for each item which can be connected, close to (or even inside) each item.

The objective of the fuse is prevent the wire melting should a short occur and also to prevent the battery from exploding should a wire melt.

To keep Dippy happy, do a risk assesment.
What could go wrong and where could it go wrong.
Put fuses in to accomodate those situations.

Remember, a fuse is not there to protect your equipment, it is there to protect the rest of the circuit FROM your equipment.
 

Dippy

Moderator
100% agree ... apart from the bit about keeping me happy.
I think my Strawberry has distressed him.
Usually you have a fuse near the supply, so, as BB says, it protects a much as possible downstream.
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
Yes Dippy. Thanks for the strawberry.
Never knew they could be associated with such a bad taste!
That one could probably pop a few fuses too.
(I'll get over it.).
 

fernando_g

Senior Member
A fuse on the gell cell definitively yes.

A fuse on the charger output, also strongly recommended. Since the charger will be current limited, perhaps a reseteable device like a Polyswitch may suffice.

The plug pack will already have an internal fuse/overtemperature cutoff, if it has International Safety Agency recognitions (UL, CE, CCC, CSA, the whole alphabet soup you find in the labels), so a fuse here is not an absolute necessity but if it makes you feel better, do include it.

I ignore what would happen to a shorted PV panel under a full sun, but I suspect that overheating could possibly damage it. A fuse here is also a must.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
I'd fuse every point where any power supply feeds the rest of a circuit where a fault could short that supply or draw excessive current. For a multi-source and multi-path power supply you may need a few. I'd also assume nothing was fused unless explicitly stated it is.

I'm not clear what the individual components of this system are in this case; maybe a circuit diagram or block diagram would make things clearer ?
 

Tim036

Member
I'd fuse every point where any power supply feeds the rest of a circuit where a fault could short that supply or draw excessive current. For a multi-source and multi-path power supply you may need a few. I'd also assume nothing was fused unless explicitly stated it is.

I'm not clear what the individual components of this system are in this case; maybe a circuit diagram or block diagram would make things clearer ?
I once witnessed the consequence of a failure of a 78p item in the starting circuits of a massive standby generator .

It was a Bank in the UK which had massive array of batteries, Inverters etc to hold up its mainframe whilst the Generator started and got up to speed in the event of a power cut..

The logic that told the generator to start failed. So it didn't. The batteries gave their 2 minutes plus a bit the....then power faded and crashed millions of pounds worth of computer systems and cost the Bank a massive amount of money to bring it back on line with valid data. With all their Branch staff staring at the wall with nothing to do for one or two days.

So as fuses are one of the least reliable components their use must be considered carefully as to the consequence of not behaving themselves !

I'm not saying avoid like the plague, just be appropriate to the consequences to the equipment failing for any reason.

Tim
 

BrendanP

Senior Member
Thanks everyone.

The explanations have clarified in my mind that fuses should be put on each power supply source as close to that source as possible. I had planned to mount the fuses directly on the pcb but given given the advice received it seems that it would be better to have a in line fuse (at least as far as the gel cell is concerned) as part of the ~300mm long leads that run from the gell cell to the screw terminals on the pcb.

This is better practice I think because then the leads themselves are fuse protected whereas if the fuse was just on the pcb then nothing 'upstream' from the fuse is protected. There is some small chance that the leads could be chewed by vermin and short out each other or the metal housing.

The mains plug pack max output will be around 1amp. What is the engineering rule of thumb for calculating/guestimating the ability of a short to ignite a fire? Obviously a 12V gel cell can supply huge amounts of I for short periods and melt metals. Can a 1amp 15V plug pack supply start a fire?

Posting and answering posts helps clarify issues in my mind.

A fuse blowing and the equipment not working is not a catastrophic, I'm more concerned with the prospect of a over current situation leading to a fire and secondly trying to limit irreversible damage to the pcb (melted tracks etc.)

Is it acceptable engineering practice to try obviate the need for a fuse by good design or basic things like (for example) ensuring that vermin can't access cabling or that it can't chafe or should you always work on the basis as my late father advised me "don't ask what will happen IF it fails rather ask what will happen WHEN it fails"?

Hippy I struggle with drawing programs, I'll try and sketch out a block diagram tonight in MS word.
 

Andrew Cowan

Senior Member
I had planned to mount the fuses directly on the pcb but given given the advice received it seems that it would be better to have a in line fuse (at least as far as the gel cell is concerned) as part of the ~300mm long leads that run from the gell cell to the screw terminals on the pcb.

That sounds good. If the cable is pulled out of the screw terminals and shorts, you want the fuse to go.

This is better practice I think because then the leads themselves are fuse protected whereas if the fuse was just on the pcb then nothing 'upstream' from the fuse is protected. There is some small chance that the leads could be chewed by vermin and short out each other or the metal housing.

Or pulled by someone trying to take it apart without unscrewing some parts.

The mains plug pack max output will be around 1amp. What is the engineering rule of thumb for calculating/guestimating the ability of a short to ignite a fire? Obviously a 12V gel cell can supply huge amounts of I for short periods and melt metals. Can a 1amp 15V plug pack supply start a fire?

Current = heat. Heat + something flammable = fire.

1A through a piece of 500mA fuse wire can make it glow red hot, and this could set fire to dry food or straw.

1A through a piece of 10A fuse wire will do nothing. Although 1A is not very likely to make a fire, it just takes one component/wire/connector that is not very good at dissipating heat, and is next to something flammable.

Put some steel wool on top of a 9V battery, and it will burn up as it is so thin. Put cotton wool or paper on this, and a fire will start. Cheap 9V batteries cannot supply 1A, yet can start fires in the right case. However, with suitable wires, PCB tracks that are thicker than hairs and components suitably rated, a fire is unlikely. Note the lead acid battery may leak hydrogen while charging.

A fuse blowing and the equipment not working is not a catastrophic, I'm more concerned with the prospect of a over current situation leading to a fire and secondly trying to limit irreversible damage to the pcb (melted tracks etc.)

Polyfuses are good for things like that - I would be more worried about electronics blowing through overcurrent than a fire starting.

Is it acceptable engineering practice to try obviate the need for a fuse by good design or basic things like (for example) ensuring that vermin can't access cabling or that it can't chafe or should you always work on the basis as my late father advised me "don't ask what will happen IF it fails rather ask what will happen WHEN it fails"?


I think you can avoid the fire problem by stopping anything flammable (straw, food etc) from entering the electronics areas. Blown comonents are another matter, although good design should avoid this. I'd just stick a 10A fuse on the battery (not sure how big the motor is), and a 1A slow blow fuse to the electronics (slow as capacitors may want to fill up).

Andrew
 
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