Fuel injection controller

D n T

Senior Member
I have often thought about using a PICAXE 40X2 to drive a fuel injection systme on a Briggs and Stratton 3.5 HP stationary engine, just to prove it can be done.
I couldn't do much without a motor so the project was left to gather dust.
Yesterday a motor arrived. Now to tinker.

Has anyone done it before with a PICAXE?
I don't want the code, I just want to know if the 40X2 will process fast enough at 4 MHz to allow wide open throttle, "full noise"
Then engine should be able to do 2000 rpm
That means 1000 fuel pulses/minute
16 pulses /second
As well as the intake air sensors, the temp sensors and the O2 sensor etc.

The motor has not load connected to it and no charging system so I might put an alternator on it to provide loadon the engine and charge to a 12 volt battery to power the injection system.

NOTE: This is only a bench mounted test model, not for transportation.
Any thoughts?
Any input will help
Thank you for any assistance
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Hard to say as most people won't know exactly what a fuel injector does and what the terminology means, me included. Can you specify it in terms of event and response, when this happens, that must be done. What varies the response and what minimum and maximum limits may be ? That makes it an abstract problem rather than a specific one.

I agree with Texasclodhopper, go as fast as you can, 32MHz or 40MHz. Though as X2 run at default 8MHz that could be simple typo, missing zero.
 

KeithRB

Senior Member
Hard to say as most people won't know exactly what a fuel injector does and what the terminology means, me included. Can you specify it in terms of event and response, when this happens, that must be done. What varies the response and what minimum and maximum limits may be ? That makes it an abstract problem rather than a specific one.

I agree with Texasclodhopper, go as fast as you can, 32MHz or 40MHz. Though as X2 run at default 8MHz that could be simple typo, missing zero.
Basically, the PicAxe will monitor all of the basic parameters and set the amount of fuel going into the engine in order to optimise the fuel/air mixture for "perfect" combustion. The O2 sensor is used to make sure all the oxygen is used up.

Generally, these systems will actually oscillate:
The O2 sensor will sense extra oxygen in the exhaust so it calls for more fuel.
The controller increases the amount of fuel, so the O2 starts to drop.
At some point, the controller decides that we have too little oxygen and cuts back on the fuel and the cycle repeats.

You can't just try for minimum O2 since there is no easy way to tell if you are dumping in too much fuel and wasting it.
 

techElder

Well-known member
I would assume that some baseline fuel/air ratio will be established.

Then let the O2 sensor (and/or other sensors) adjust that ratio up or down with consideration to possible faults etc.

I certainly wouldn't have used the word "oscillate" to describe a closed-loop system.

You still haven't answered the question about throttle body injection or direct injection. Perhaps this is so new that you haven't decided yet?
 

KeithRB

Senior Member
I would assume that some baseline fuel/air ratio will be established.

Then let the O2 sensor (and/or other sensors) adjust that ratio up or down with consideration to possible faults etc.

I certainly wouldn't have used the word "oscillate" to describe a closed-loop system.

You still haven't answered the question about throttle body injection or direct injection. Perhaps this is so new that you haven't decided yet?
Have you ever seen the output from a working O2 sensor in closed loop?
http://www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm

A DMM is pretty useless in measuring one on a running engine.
 

fathom

New Member
One way to do it as based on the Emerald K3 ECU that I have on my kit car.

The ECU works on a fuel map, on the x axis is the engine speed and on the y axis is the engine load. For example under no load the revs can be high but the load is low but also the load can be high and the revs also high. The figures on the map where the load and the revs intersect depict how long the injector is open in milliseconds.

for a throttle body use a motorcycle throttle body of a suzuki 600 cc motorbike. On the throttle shaft mount a potentiometer to measure how wide open the throttle is which gives you your engine load. Take an RPM measure and this will give you the engine speed. The throttle body also has a fuel injector built in so this solves a lot of the mechanical hassle.

Having an O2 sensor will tell you how much fuel is burnt, the air fuel ratio for a clean burn (stoichmetric) should be 14.2:1 and the O2 sensor will give a voltage in proportion to the air fuel ratio, an O2 sensor from a breakers is very narrow band and it will be quite hard to monitor when it crosses over 14.2:1, a wide band sensor will give you more time and a wider ratio band but they are a lot more expensive. For simply running a lawnmower engine it may be a bit of an overkill.

For ignition you need to know where the crank is with respect to TDC. A car uses a 52 notch wheel mounted on the crank shaft with a tooth missing at 90 deg before TDC on cylinder one and the timing is worked out from that. a similar system could be used on a single cylinder.

This is all sort of based around a complex and fragile 16V engine but could be stripped down to the bare bones to run a fairly robust B&S engine.

For the emerald ECU this is the website http://www.emeraldm3d.com/
 

fathom

New Member
Also for DIY Engine management google "megasquirt" there is a lot of info on home made engine management for the experimenter.
 

Jaguarjoe

Senior Member
You can't just try for minimum O2 since there is no easy way to tell if you are dumping in too much fuel and wasting it.
If you went for minimum O2 the fuel wouldn't burn.

At the midpoint of the NBO2 sensor's output "curve",(if you will) the AFR is 14.7:1- a clean burn but not rich enough for max power and not lean enough for best economy.
 

fathom

New Member
Actually I'd go for a rich fuel mixture to start with as its unlikely to do much damage to the engine, if its too rich it wont run. But if you go for a too lean mixture the engine will run hot and may cause damage to the engine. The base map that was supplied with my ECU was set too rich to avoid damage to the engine and was corrected on the rolling road later on.

Just remember 3 things air, fuel and spark that's all an engine needs to run albeit in the right places and in the right proportion.
 

Jaguarjoe

Senior Member
Are you going to use a MAF or are you going to try speed/density fuel injection? MAF would probably work better but can you get a MAF that small? S/D is easier but it would be a challenge to get a usefull manifold vacuum signal.

I can't picture where the fuel injector will be located.
If you put it under the intake valve, you'll need to synchronize the injector opening with the valve opening. This will require knowing where the cam shaft is.
If you put it in the manifold, how much fuel will puddle under the injector and how much will get sucked into the engine?
Direct injection may be the way to go. Nobody else would have it.
 

fathom

New Member
I can't picture where the fuel injector will be located.
If you put it under the intake valve, you'll need to synchronize the injector opening with the valve opening. This will require knowing where the cam shaft is.
If you put it in the manifold, how much fuel will puddle under the injector and how much will get sucked into the engine?
Direct injection may be the way to go. Nobody else would have it.
You don't really have to worry too much about timing the injector with the valve opening. Most production engines will "batch" fire two injectors at once ie on a 4 cylinder it will fire 1 and 3 at the same time then 2 and 4 although only one of the cylinders will draw in the fuel. Most production EFI systems are really crude at the end of the day. If you know when the cylinder is coming up to TDC then you know roughly when to pump in the fuel. A fuel injector will atmoise the fuel into a vapour and the vacuum caused by the cylinder drawing down will suck in the fuel but bearing in mind the injector will only be open for 100ms or so the amount of fuel will be small.

Are you going to use a MAF or are you going to try speed/density fuel injection? MAF would probably work better but can you get a MAF that small? S/D is easier but it would be a challenge to get a usefull manifold vacuum signal.
Mass Air Flow isn't really required all you need to know is how far open the throttle is, with a pot mounted on the butterfly, what speed your engine is running at and when the engine is about to reach TDC. Keep it simple.
 

Jaguarjoe

Senior Member
Almost all mass produced IC engines are sequentially fuel injected to wring out that last 3 or 4% of fuel efficiency.
Batch firing worked great 20-30 years ago on conventional OHV engines. It didn't matter when the squirt occurred because gravity kept the squirt on top of the intake valve if wasn't already open. My V-12 fires six at a time, one bank then the other. No crankshaft position sensing, just looks at ignition pulses.
Injector timing is more critical on a flat head side valve engine. Fire at the wrong time and the fuel will puddle at the bottom of the intake tract because the injector is under the valve, and, not unlike a woman's breasts, gravity will prevail.
N-alpha works best on engines that do not vary in speed too much, like a racing car. Very hard to drive on the street. But you're right- start simple.
 

Rbeckett

Member
DnT, I think what you want to do is easily do-able. Consider replacing the main fuel jet nozzle with a fired injector similar to the older GM TBI and use O2 and throttle position for load calcs to fire the injector and it should do just fine. Good luck and post up you solution, I for one would like to see it. I think you can do it!!!!!!
Bob
 

RexLan

Senior Member
You don't really have to worry too much about timing the injector with the valve opening. Most production engines will "batch" fire two injectors at once ie on a 4 cylinder it will fire 1 and 3 at the same time then 2 and 4 although only one of the cylinders will draw in the fuel. Most production EFI systems are really crude at the end of the day. If you know when the cylinder is coming up to TDC then you know roughly when to pump in the fuel. A fuel injector will atmoise the fuel into a vapour and the vacuum caused by the cylinder drawing down will suck in the fuel but bearing in mind the injector will only be open for 100ms or so the amount of fuel will be small.



Mass Air Flow isn't really required all you need to know is how far open the throttle is, with a pot mounted on the butterfly, what speed your engine is running at and when the engine is about to reach TDC. Keep it simple.
Totally wrong.

Batch fire is only done at starting and ALL engines need to have either mass air flow or MAP to calculate the engine load so the proper amount of fuel to obtain a target AFR is delivered for the specific load v. RPM. Calculating load is a big deal and not something the Picaxe could ever handle in real time.

Here is how it is done and it is required once per cylinder per ignition cycle.
LOAD (in %) = MAF (in kg/hr) / 60 * 1000 / (number of cylinders / 2) / rpm / grams of air one cylinder * 100

The throttle position is generally used only to signal the computer to go to open or closed loop which typically happens at 70%. In open loop load/RPM to calculate required injector pulse to deliver the right amount of fuel to obtain a specific AFR which is held in a table. In closed loop the computer delivers fuel to obtain the stoichiometric AFR which is 14.7:1 and it derived from the 02 sensor.

Almost all FI engines as JJ says use sequential injector firing and injector timing is critical. Injector timing is knowing when to fire the injector in relation to the camshaft position.
 

fathom

New Member
Totally wrong.

Batch fire is only done at starting and ALL engines need to have either mass air flow or MAP to calculate the engine load so the proper amount of fuel to obtain a target AFR is delivered for the specific load v. RPM. Calculating load is a big deal and not something the Picaxe could ever handle in real time.
Ok I have used a Emerald ECU for my kit car the link is here http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_k3.html My injectors are batch fired all the time, my ignition system uses wasted spark, I don't have a mass air flow meter or MAP to calculate engine load it uses a throttle potentiometer and engine speed sensor. There are other sensors such as the crank sensor, engine temp to set up corrections for cold start and to synchronise when the injectors open and the coil pack fires. To idle the engine it uses a air bypass valve which by passes the butterfly on the throttle body and bleeds some air pass to allow the engine to idle it also allows more air to pass to act like a choke.

Working the load out is easy, If the throttle is wide open but the speed is low thus the load is high if the throttle is only slightly open but speed is high thus the load is low, easy.

Dave Walker the man behind the Emerald ECU is a very clever bloke and wrote a very good book all about ECU systems http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimising-Carburettors-High-performance/dp/1859608353/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288993641&sr=1-1 read it before you come out with "totally wrong" again
 
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RexLan

Senior Member
Ok I have used a Emerald ECU for my kit car the link is here http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_k3.html My injectors are batch fired all the time, my ignition system uses wasted spark, I don't have a mass air flow meter or MAP to calculate engine load it uses a throttle potentiometer and engine speed sensor. There are other sensors such as the crank sensor, engine temp to set up corrections for cold start and to synchronise when the injectors open and the coil pack fires. To idle the engine it uses a air bypass valve which by passes the butterfly on the throttle body and bleeds some air pass to allow the engine to idle it also allows more air to pass to act like a choke.

Working the load out is easy, If the throttle is wide open but the speed is low thus the load is high if the throttle is only slightly open but speed is high thus the load is low, easy.

Dave Walker the man behind the Emerald ECU is a very clever bloke and wrote a very good book all about ECU systems http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimising-Carburettors-High-performance/dp/1859608353/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288993641&sr=1-1 read it before you come out with "totally wrong" again
What you originally said about most production engines is still totally wrong ... and what you have just said is wrong.

He may be clever but his system isn't while it uses the TPS for load. You have to poorest of all known systems and you can read about it here:
http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=4

You have absolutely no ideal what the engine load is by looking at the throttle position and that is just plain silly. Wasted spark has been around for 20 years and quite common on 4 cyl engines but it has nothing to do with injectors and fuel delivery. Wasted spark is used to scavenge the power left in the exhaust and to help the head flow.

Bypass air valves for idle control have been around for decades ... he did not invent it.

It is impossible to work out load based on the stupid throttle position ... You are now saying that when you rev the engine up sitting in your driveway then that is high load on the engine right ... LOL That is silly. In fact you can rev the engine up to 6000 RPM in the driveway and not even achieve 25% load. But you can hit about 95% load at 70% throttle position and mid RPM so how do you calculate that?

You're also saying that all of your injectors fire at the same time BATCH firing ... really? That is what batch fire means you know. I believe you mean that the injectors are bank firing which is totally different and again you are totally wrong with what you said.

Batch firing is done at engine start to provide a set amount of fuel primarily because of the huge unknown about RPM, cam position and crank position in the first few milliseconds at engine start. The exact amount of fuel needed can not be known during start so the injectors are batch fired at a predetermined pulse width until there is a valid RPM signal.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
While robust debate is welcomed, please let's remember to keep it civil and avoid personal attacks on each other.
 

gengis

New Member
Seems to me my old BMW had a "mass flow sensor" (their name for it) that was nothing more than a "barn door" made from some hard high temp plastic, and another throttle position sensor. All the sensors it needed...

Hit the accelerator and vacuum swings the gate open when a lot of intake air is moving. Only three wires to the gate so, it may have been a potentiometer. A spring closed the gate.

Two injectors, one at the throttle plate and another at the intake manifold. I assume one provided a choke function for cold starting.
 

fathom

New Member
Well it works for me and my ECU. So its not wrong its just another way of doing it and it works.

Taken from the Emerald K3 website
Engine load

Engine load is normally determined by one of the following methods:


Throttle Position Sensor

This is the most common engine load sensor especially on after market systems. A TPS is a small potentiometer (or ‘throttle pot’) which is connected directly to the throttle shaft and turns with it. It returns a value to the EMS depending on the throttle position. TPS sensors are normally used on performance engines where airflow sensors might become confused because of pulses in the inlet tract. Because they do not measure airflow but simply give a throttle position, airflow is assumed to be constant for any given engine speed and throttle position. If the engine is further modified, the airflow characteristics may change and the engine may need re-mapping. EMS systems that use direct airflow measurement can often cope with changes more effectively and can alter the fuelling to suit without a re-mapping session.


Air metering flap

Another way of determining the engine load is to measure the airflow into the engine and this can be done using a flap which is deflected by incoming air. This is commonly known as an airflow meter. These are common on older injection systems, but can be confused by reverse pulses in the inlet tract when more extreme cams are used and can be restrictive to the inlet airflow.


Manifold Air Pressure sensor

These measure the vacuum or air pressure in the inlet manifold which in turn gives an indication of load. They are more commonly used on turbocharged engines to give an indication of boost level. This is often referred to as a MAP sensor, although not to be confused with a 'map'.


Hot wire

This approach uses a heated platinum wire and measures the current required to keep it at a particular temperature. As air passes over the wire it cools it down, so the more air that passes, the greater the cooling effect and therefore the greater the current. The hot wire system can be also be confused by reverse pulses when more extreme cams are used.
Its just another way to do it.

Apologies I group fire my injectors not batch, I was quoting from memory of something I did about 5 years ago and a lot of information has passed through my brain since then.
 

Adamey

Senior Member
So much mis-information going on in this thread about fuel injection. This will be long, so please bear with me.


TPS

TPS works fine for calculating load. It's not as "sophisticated" as other systems, but that doesn't mean it's bad. The main drawback it has is that it requires the person tuning to do more work when setting it up to make it run good. A well-tuned TPS only system can easily outperform a poorly tuned MAF system.

RexLan. Your example about 6,000 RPM in your driveway actually proves TPS can be used for load. To hit 6,000 RPM with no load would only require a very small throttle opening. Try it on any engine and you'll see that if you open the throttle only 10% you can easily get very high RPM's. Since the throttle is only open 10%, then load is obviously very small. Since RPM is so high, the load is even smaller. The tables in the ECU would refelect this. 6,000 RPM at 10% throttle would require very little fuel. 2,000 RPM at 10% throttle (cruising) would require more fuel and different timing. These values are all determined through tuning and placed into the load table of the ECU.

TPS are used for more than determining closed/open loop (which is on the bottom of the list in importance). The primary uses of TPS are for determining load and for acceleration enrichment.

Load is striaghtforward - wherever the driver has the accelerator pedal is a good indication of how much "load" they are requesting. In modern vehicles, the throttle pedal is actually a "power pedal". If you press the pedal down to 50%, then the engine ECU will do whatever it can to develop 50% power (by adjusting fuel, ignition, boost and even throttle position for cars with drive-by-wire throttles) to achieve that 50% power target.

They are using this now on many race cars. Instead of requiring the driver to understand the engine power characteristics (especially for turbocharged engines which can have lag) they treat the throttle pedal as a power pedal. Now the driver only has to think "if I press the pedal this much, the engine produces this much" instead of having to "guess" the response of the engine to throttle inputs.

Acceleration enrichment is the main use of TPS. When the throttle is quickly opened, the engine takes a large "gulp" of air. Since there's so much more air than fuel, the engine leans out and hesitates for a split second. To compensate for this you add extra fuel by increasing injector pulse width higher than normal for a short time. You can't rely on a MAF (mass air flow) or MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor for this they are too slow. Not the sensors themselves (which are fast), but because of the reaction time to the airflow change based on their physical location. The TPS is the primary way to adjust acceleration enrichment, with MAF/MAP coming in second.

Engine ECU's monitor TPS over time to determine if throttle inputs are changing rapidly enough to require acceleration enrichment, and by how much.

The last use of TPS is for deceleration fuel shut off. If you are slowing down and have your foot off the throttle pedal, but the engine RPM's are high, then the injectors are shut off completely. This saves fuel and slightly improves economoy. On many new cars, this gets more advanced. Coasting down a long hill (mountain driving) you could have fuel shut off for an extended period of time. This will let the catalytic convertors cool off, which means they don't work as well. So new cars will add a little bit of fuel periodically when coasting to ensure the cats stay hot.


Injectors

For those who don't know, fully sequential injection is when the injector for each cylinder is independently fired. Further, the time when this injector is fired can also vary. Most people think that a fuel injector should only spray fuel when the intake valve is open and the fuel/air mixture is entering the cylinder. This is not correct. Usually the injector opens when the intake valve is closed, and finishes spraying fuel sometime while the valve is open. The timing is done such that the entire charge of fuel is drawn into the cylinder. Often, the time when the injector fires is actually varied at different load/RPM's as you can extract a little more power/torque by making small changes to injection timing.

Batch fire is when all injectors are fired at the same time. Obviously, when this happens some injectors could be spraying fuel when the intake valve is closed while other injectors are spraying when the intake valve is open. You would think that this would make the engine run poorly, but surprisingly it actually works very well for most engines. To help smooth fuel delivery out, batch fire rarely fires only once per engine cycle (two revolutions). Usually they fire two (or more) times with short pulse widths. This distributes the fuel more evenly to all cylinders.

On older mechanical injection systems, the injectors sprayed fuel 100% of the time. Obviously, fuel will collect on the back side of the intake valve and then be drawn into the cylinder only when the intake valve opens. Again, you might think this is a poor system and can't work well, but many engines used this (VW & Mercedes, for example) and they all ran great.

Group fire is somewhere in between. You might fire injectors in banks (for a V8 engine) or you might fire them in pairs. Firing injectors in banks is really no different than pure batch fire. Firing injectors in pairs is better than straight batch, but not as good as sequential.

So sequential is the best, but is is really sequential all the time? At lower RPM's when the intake valve is open for much longer than the pulse width of the injector you can have fully sequential injection. At higher RPM's, this changes. You often get to the point where the injector pulse width is much longer than the time the intake valve is open (high load/high RPM). In some engines, the fuel injector can be open for 60-80% of the cycle, which means the injector spends most of its time spraying fuel when the intake valve is closed. Sounds a lot like batch, and it is. While sequential systems don't literally "switch" to batch fire mode at high RPM's, they function exactly the same. So when your fancy sequential system is developing maximum power, it's really just working like batch.


O2 Sensors

This is where things get complicated, even though it seems so simple. An O2 Sensor measures oxygen content and this is used to determine air/fuel ratio. There are basially two types of O2 Sensors: narrow band (most common by far) and wide band.

Narrow band sensors "switch". They can tell you if you are at stoich (14.7:1 air/fuel) but are very innacurate outside this range. Hence the name narrow band. They output about 0.45V for stoich and anything over or under represents a righ/lean mixture. It's important to note that 0.9V is not twice as rich as 0.45V. In fact, once you get over 0.5V or so, the sensor cannot determine how rich the engine is at all. As far as a narrow band sensor is, 12:1, 13:1 or 14:1 air fuel ratios would all output the same voltage (likely close to 1V).

Wide band sensors will tell you exactly what the air/fuel ratio is and will output a voltage or current (depending on type) that directly represents the air/fuel ratio.

So people are thinking "what good is a narrow band sensor if it can't tell me my air/fuel ratio?" Well, the truth is a narrow band sensor can give very accurate results. It's how you use it.

If you look at a typical car with a narrow band O2 sensor and put a voltmeter on it you'd see the voltage constantly switching from about 0.1V to 0.9V (constantly switching from rich to lean). But does this mean your engine is always running either rich or lean? No, of course not.

Let's say your engine needs an injector pulse width of 5.0ms to operate at 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. The ECU might send out a pulse wdith of 4.8ms which causes the O2 sensor to read lean. Then the ECU could use a pulse width of 5.2ms which causes the O2 sensor to read rich. The average amount of fuel your engine is getting from rapidly switching between 4.8 and 5.2ms is the same as simply using a 5.0ms pulse width, which is exaclty what we want. So although the O2 sensor makes it appear the engine is always going lean/rich, the amount it's going from lean to rich is very small. The narrow band sensor "amplifies" the error by giving large voltage swings for very small changes in the air/fuel mixture.



Getting tired of typing - will post more later. Oh, and pics of the Lamborghini Countach that we're building right now. :)
 

techElder

Well-known member
I wonder if we can start an "automotive engine redesign" section? ;)

Can all this be related to PICAXE anymore?
 

Dippy

Moderator
I thought you had just done exactly that? ;)

A good healthy argument has brewed.
Adamey's master stroke was the name dropping of the Lamborghini Countach.

Maybe someone is doing an upgrade to a Veyron?

Anyone here ever watched that old film "School for Scoundrels" and the lessons in "One-Upmanship" ? If so you'll understand.

I LOLd in a totally awesome way. Good stuff.
 

fathom

New Member
I think the design idea got lost somewhere with a lot of willy waving on sequential fuel injection and thinking about it too hard.

Psst, its a single cylinder lawn mower engine.

I'm pretty sure I've seen homebrew EFI systems before I'm pretty sure it could be done with discrete components. The engine only produces about 3hp and the carburettor on it is pretty crude. You could probably make it run by spraying petrol in with a plant sprayer.

Give it a go there is plenty of information out there on google about how it could be done just ignore the "totally wrong" brigade!!
 

RobertN

Member
For a small single cylinder, engine a Picaxe may work. These engines typically have simple carburetors that slobber in enough fuel to keep the mixture rich enough to run without fuss, and the extra fuel helps keep them cool.
A basic setup would require 4 things, engine speed, throttle position, temperature, and an injector driver. Speed, injector timing and duration may have to be done sequentially to stay within the micro capabilities. Some ingenuity in handling the signals and timing may be needed to keep it simple. Good luck
 

D n T

Senior Member
Thanks for your input

I have had a fair bit of experience with EFI and am aware of the multitude of methods, Bosch has a bundle of difffernt types, then there is Haltech, Wolf3D etc.
I hope you are all still friends after the "passionate discussion".
I will keep you posted
I want to see pictures of the Lambo.
 

D n T

Senior Member
Red neck fuel injection

After the mass debate we had on here where knowledgable individuals nearly got medieval on each other, I thought I might up date you all.

I got hold of my little single cylinder Briggs and Stratton and removed the carby.
I sprayed some Aerostart ( ether/diesel based start assist spray) into the connecting tube (a manifold implies distribution to multiple outlets) while a mate pulled the pull start.
The engine kick in to life and ran as long as I supplied the ether mix.
System break down:
Air flow sensor : me
Air mass sensor: me
Throttle position sensor: finger
O2 sensor: our eyes and nose, if they stung then its too rich, our ears if the engine dies, needs more juice.
Much fun had by all.
Now I have to convert me into PICAXE
People, thanks for the passion but play nice.
I'm actually very sure that if everyone who contributed to the debate was in the same room we would sort it real quick, then get down to the serious matter of the beers afterward.
 

Jaguarjoe

Senior Member
If you get a chance Google "Ion sensing". It uses the spark plug as a sensor to find PPP (Peak Pressure Position) which occurs around 10- 20 degrees ATDC and adjusts spark advance to keep it there.
 
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Adamey

Senior Member
I put a few quick pages up showing the Lamborghini Countach. When I get time I'll make a nicer site - this project really deserves it, and it's too in-depth to be condensed to a few pages.

www.dangonay.com/lambo
 

Adamey

Senior Member
^ Thanks. We're quite proud of this car as it represents a world first for a Countach in terms of the depth of the conversion.
 

Adamey

Senior Member
First time around $25K to rebuild the engine. Second time around $27K for the fuel injection. Lot of money but this is a very rare Countach, 1 of only 37 ever made.
 

Jaguarjoe

Senior Member
A car as rare as that should have been restored to original condition. 27k for mods that only diminished the value of the car.
Why not put LED eyes on the Mona Lisa?
 

Adamey

Senior Member
A car as rare as that should have been restored to original condition. 27k for mods that only diminished the value of the car.
Why not put LED eyes on the Mona Lisa?
Most parts are no longer available for this car. If the car was carb'd then it would be easy to restore as carb parts are readily available.

Certain fuel injection parts are available, but many key ones (like the computers and electronic modules) aren't. Ignition modules are famous for going bad, and they are no longer available. So owners started putting on MSD and other ignition systems to keep their cars running.

Bottom line, it's either modify the fuel injection to make the car usable, or park it in a museum with its factory original, but non-functioning parts.

People in the Countach community are aware of this, and as such modifying the car doesn't reduce it's value. We researched this before we started cutting. ;)
 
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