Forum etiquette/practices (revisited)

[westaust55]

This forum is run by Revolution Education and I believe they are relative lenient in what matters are discussed here including deviations and humour subject to complying with the requirements of the forum protocol to respect others, no spam, no advertising and active promoting of competitors microcontroller products. Most of this is outlined in the sticky ”ReadMe First!” thread at the top of the Active forum.
http://www.picaxeforum.co.uk/showthread.php?7679-Read-Me-First!

It has been noted by many newcomers that this forum has a very friendly approach to responses and a response time faster than many have expected. That is a good thing and something we as members can all be proud about.

The following is my personal opinion and open to challenge/comment but I put this forward as a basis for answering question. I acknowledge that everyone has their own style in answering questions on the forum.

I have noticed that from time to time when newcomers to this forum with minimal electronics and/or programming experience raise a question there can be a tendency for some to not answer the specific question but provide recommendations for alternative solutions.

There will be times when while the OP has been vague, we can make an educated analysis (guess) and provide a response based on typical past problems that may quickly resolve the question. (eg fresh batteries, interconnect ground/0V of multiple supplies, pull down for SeriaIn pin, etc)

Where the enquiring post does not provide adequate information but intimates to a particular set of components, rather than dive in and suggest an alternative line of hardware consider:
1. Asking for clarification about what is wanted, what are the operating parameters, space limitations, budgets , project urgency (school project), etc
2. If not clear first ask what the OP has already purchased – could make them feel dismal if told up front their purchase is inadequate
3. Try to answer the question originally asked and if the proposed hardware is totally inadequate, then explain clearly why not and how it can be resolve using recommended parts.
4. Keep in mind that what may be easy or simple to you may be confusing to someone with little or no experience in programming and more so in the case of electronics design/construction/faultfinding.
5. Respect others (and akin to religion) do not force you ideas onto others.

Some time ago now there was a thread (or two) on trying to have a proforma for those with questions to follow to explain exactly what they have in hardware and software.

Of recent newcomers seemingly are more vague about their actual project objectives, hardware and what code they have developed to date.

For those newcomers reading please try to explain clearly in plain English (without slang and abbreviations) what you have purchased, post your schematic diagram for the circuitry if something has already been assembled and your BASIC program code.
Also consider including a clear photo of the project hardware. For the best photos try to have a plain background, that the photo perpendicular to the boards/displays, include the wiring .
If it is a soldered board a photo of both sides.
If a breadboard then try to keep the wiring tidy so folks can trace through on the photo and try to use different colours for different signals where possible.
Include a link to the datasheet for the main and in particular troublesome components you have in the project.

If wanting recommendations on what (eg sensor/display) to purchase for a particular task try and indicate any physical restrictions, your budget, time to buy/complete project etc.
If you have not indicated in your forum profile, tell us where you are located (at least which continent) so folks can try to recommend a source relatively close to you. It may be cheap coming from the other side of the planet but not of much value if it takes 2 weeks to arrive and your school project is due in a week.

On that note, I open the discussion to other PICAXE forum members . . . .

 

[boriz]

"The following is my personal opinion..." - As a moderator?

 

[westaust55]

"The following is my personal opinion..." - As a moderator?

While I am a moderator, like many of the other moderators, we are individuals around the world who are unpaid by Rev Ed but due to our frequency on the forum have been asked to help out in tasks such as removal of spam, advertising and inappropriate items, etc.
Dr Acula (a moderator long before myself) and myself as moderators located in Australia were invited to assist as we are on the opposite side of the world to the UK and thus able to react on spam, etc while those in the UK were likely asleep.

The content of my post is entirely my own opinion and in no way was I encourage by Rev Ed to write same. It is my own observations and taking into account the Read Me First! which I am sure many do not read. I had participated in at least one earlier thread probably a couple of years ago now on how to solicit the necessary information from newcomers and those with questions in general before I was ever invited to become a moderator.


While I have often highlighted the need for folks to use the formatting tags and occasionally merged two concurrent threads by the OP on the same topic, moved a post/thread to the Active forum, I would suggest that I have not to date deleted a post/thread on grounds of advertising.

Feel free to provide your own constructive comments on the topic of Forum etiquette/practices.

 

[Dippy]

You make some good points Westy, but we both know that people don't read instructions - especially if longer than half a dozen sentences... I would add a request for responders too; if there are already half-a-dozen replies (without OP response) then wait. I have seen some case of a question followed by 3 pages of replies - when the OP returned it was obvious that only the last replies had been read, and everyone else has wasted their time. (My bloody Enter/Return key won't work.... which reminds me; questions with no spacing, pauses or grammar are painful. Anyone who says "My Bad" and "Awesome" should be banned (joke)). And, yes, this is my own opinion too - although I have been advised by GCHQ to bring up the subject of commas.

 

[RexLan]

You make some good points Westy, but we both know that people don't read instructions - especially if longer than half a dozen sentences...

I agree and lost interest after the first few paragraphs ... whew!

 

[Buzby]

... (My bloody Enter/Return key won't work....

Start/Programs/Accessories/Accessibility/OnScreenKeyboard ( or something like that at %SystemRoot%\system32\osk.exe )

( This is on Windows XP, I don't know about any other OS. )

Another idea, find a freeware keyboard remapper, and use a different key.

 

[ValueAdd]

Start/Programs/Accessories/Accessibility/OnScreenKeyboard ( or something like that at %SystemRoot%\system32\osk.exe )

( This is on Windows XP, I don't know about any other OS. )

Another idea, find a freeware keyboard remapper, and use a different key.

Dippy is probably going "Gotcha" about now
emulating some posts where there is an on going block of text with no returns, making it harder to read however, he did add punctuation.

 

[nick12ab]

The content of my post is entirely my own opinion and in no way was I encourage by Rev Ed to write same. It is my own observations and taking into account the Read Me First! which I am sure many do not read. I had participated in at least one earlier thread probably a couple of years ago now on how to solicit the necessary information from newcomers and those with questions in general before I was ever invited to become a moderator.

Members: 63569
Views of Read Me First: 11965

Only about one fifth of the members have actually read it.

Of course, there will be lots of members who have never posted because they only signed up just to view the attachments, but there's no way to confirm this because the member list has conveniently been disabled by the administrator. But there will also be lots of views added to the view count where members tell other members who have not read it to read it, and where members who have already read it go and read it again to copy and paste some text from it that is relevant to a particular situation (spam etc).

 

[Dippy]

No Gotchas ValueAdd, my return/enter key genuinely wouldn't work on the forum 'reply' box.
But, yes, when I see >5 lines of unspaced text I switch off. Ditto txt spk.

Nick:-
"Members: 63569
Views of Read Me First: 11965

Only about one fifth of the members have actually read it.
"

I'd put 50p on less than 10% have actually read it (all).
Most others would click/check after reading one sentence.

 

[Axel87]

Have nothing but positives to say about this forum!
I believe I can speak for myself and alot of other noobs when I say that we appreciate everyone's patience,understanding and assistance.
It is good to get a reminder as to what is needed on your end in order to offer help.
Thanks again and my hat is off to all the moderators and anyone who offers a hand, look forward to the day when I can offer more support to my fellow programmers!

 

[manie]

Just to say......

I certainly did not read it...............

 

[Jamster]

It's intersting that the Read Me First thread says to make sure images are low resolution not high (presumable because of the space it takes up on the servers) however all of us then say the opposite and ask for high resolution photos of people's setups...

 

[Goeytex]

I have noticed that from time to time when newcomers to this forum with minimal electronics and/or programming experience raise a question there can be a tendency for some to not answer the specific question but provide recommendations for alternative solutions.

Or offer unsolicited legal advise. So I suggest the following.

6) If a poster asks a technical question that may in (your opinion) have certain legal ramifications try to answer the question asked rather than offering discouragement / legal advise UNLESS the answer might put someone (including yourself) in legal jeopardy.

Example 1: The poster wants to add an LED dome light to his auto. Is there really a need to offer unsolicited legal advise about modifying automotive lighting? If I want legal advise I will consult an attorney. If I need technical advise I consult technical people.

Example 2: A new poster wants help with code and circuitry so that a Picaxe connected to a cell phone will energize a relay after ringing 3 times. I'd probably not even respond to this request. What would you do ?

 

[Hemi345]

I have noticed that from time to time when newcomers to this forum with minimal electronics and/or programming experience raise a question there can be a tendency for some to not answer the specific question but provide recommendations for alternative solutions.

I don't see a problem with this. There are enough people here that will probably help with the original question and the alternative solutions offered are something to think about if the original idea is not practical or fails. We can take Henryhens school project as an example. His load-sensing shelf may not be practical given his experience demonstrated thus far and the entire project may fail because of this one stumbling block. If he considers some of the alternative solutions, he could use them to keep the project moving and actually have something to turn in for grade/credit. The KISS approach... when that works, then start adding the bells and whistles.

Example 2: A new poster wants help with code and circuitry so that a Picaxe connected to a cell phone will energize a relay after ringing 3 times. I'd probably not even respond to this request. What would you do ?

Help them wire it backwards. haha

 

[srnet]

Or offer unsolicited legal advise. So I suggest the following.

6) If a poster asks a technical question that may in (your opinion) have certain legal ramifications try to answer the question asked rather than offering discouragement / legal advise UNLESS the answer might put someone (including yourself) in legal jeopardy.

Example 1: The poster wants to add an LED dome light to his auto. Is there really a need to offer unsolicited legal advise about modifying automotive lighting? If I want legal advise I will consult an attorney. If I need technical advise I consult technical people.

Are you really suggesting that if a poster is asking questions about something that is illegal, we should all just shut up ?

Seriously ?

 

[PADJ]

Example 2: A new poster wants help with code and circuitry so that a Picaxe connected to a cell phone will energize a relay after ringing 3 times. I'd probably not even respond to this request. What would you do ?

Or Example 3: A new poster wants to build a 7ft rocket, targeting mach 1 at 10,000ft and wants a guidance system for this SAM

 

[Goeytex]

Are you really suggesting that if a poster is asking questions about something that is illegal, we should all just shut up ?

Seriously ?

Amazing ... Are you really suggesting that I suggested that? Seriously?


I will, however suggest that you read what I actually wrote ( all of it), and not what you think you see in the white space. I clearly stated, "UNLESS ..." with what I believe to be an appropriate qualification.

If you disagree, state your case. But I would appreciate it if you don't misrepresent what I posted.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

There is a degree of over-sensitivity (in my view) with regard to criticism of things that are safe IF UNDERTAKEN COMPETENTLY here at times. For example, I've designed and built a Picaxe version of the Immersun-type excess solar power diverter. This device detects whenever a solar PV array is generating more power than the house is using and diverts the excess to an immersion heater to heat the hot water.

I'm extremely reluctant to post details of it here, even though I know the circuit is safe and fully isolated from the mains, because I just know that there will be a torrent of over-sensitive safety "advice" from some quarters. I can understand the need for safety warnings, especially as we have some here who are inexperienced with electronics and electrical safety, but we really should be able to allow a suitable caveated post describing, safely, how to build something that involves mains voltages.

 

[Marcwolf]

Hmmm..I always look at something this way. What might be illegal in your country/state might not be in others. All questions and answers are hypothetical mental exercises until put into action. I have an interest in nuclear weapons and reactors. This does not mean that I have any intention of building one. I also enjoy solving puzzles - one might be how to get into a bank without setting off the alarms - it is a game of wits to see if I can find any weakness in another's security system. However I have no intentions of breaking into a bank.

 

[PADJ]

IMO - anyone asking for help with a 'potentially unsafe' project should expect to be asked to demonstrate they know what they're doing.

Too often newbies provide NO information at all. They could be a 12 year old, or a retired professional engineer.

 

[John West]

Or Example 3: A new poster wants to build a 7ft rocket, targeting mach 1 at 10,000ft and wants a guidance system for this SAM

Example 4: A poster wants to send a model sailboat across the Atlantic Ocean to a spot in a harbor in the USA (purely hypothetical ) where it then sets off 4 pounds of plastic explosives.

The point here is that most any project we help on could be be turned to evil purposes, and we'd never know it until it was too late. Technology is power, and power in the wrong hands is dangerous and destructive. That's life. We just need to take folks at face value and help them with their PICAXE projects and hope for the best, unless the project is insanely, obviously, malicious in intent, meaning we don't help anyone learn to fly a jumbo jet who has no interest in learning how to land it. We need to spend our lives exercising good judgement. We have little choice. That's the curse of great knowledge.

 

[hippy]

There never will be any consensus on what cautions or warnings members should or should not give to others so the only thing one can do is leave it to individuals replying to decide how they wish to respond and in what manner and allow them their judgement on that.

I often find the response to a warning of potential danger or illegality quite revealing and it allows me to consider their suitability for undertaking what they propose. It can be a useful tool which can be used without causing offence.

 

[Axel87]

There is a degree of over-sensitivity (in my view) with regard to criticism of things that are safe IF UNDERTAKEN COMPETENTLY here at times. For example, I've designed and built a Picaxe version of the Immersun-type excess solar power diverter. This device detects whenever a solar PV array is generating more power than the house is using and diverts the excess to an immersion heater to heat the hot water.

I'm extremely reluctant to post details of it here, even though I know the circuit is safe and fully isolated from the mains, because I just know that there will be a torrent of over-sensitive safety "advice" from some quarters. I can understand the need for safety warnings, especially as we have some here who are inexperienced with electronics and electrical safety, but we really should be able to allow a suitable caveated post describing, safely, how to build something that involves mains voltages.

I would 2nd this motion. A simple warning should suffice, but noone(but the user) should be held responsible. But if we filter out those projects, then we are just stifling creativity and openness.

"Example 2: A new poster wants help with code and circuitry so that a Picaxe connected to a cell phone will energize a relay after ringing 3 times. I'd probably not even respond to this request. What would you do ?"

I find it ridiculous people wouldent help with this project! Assuming the user is incompetent is just offensive. Put a warning if you need a legal shield. But as memtioned on here already, if you need legal advice seek a lawyer, your looking for a little help on a project? Seek other adventures and techs. If all the forum is worried about what COULD happen, there will be nothing happening.

 

[Dippy]

Very good points.

Where do you give warnings or keep quiet? You'll always be wrong in someone else's opinion.
Where do you draw the line between 'Nanny knows best' and trying to discourage an incompetent/ignorant person doing something painful?

If you want legal advice seek a lawyer... yup, obvious.
But many people are so over-excited about a project they forget or ignore it. (I've done that myself. Head right up somewhere with the blinkers on).


Don't forget, the audience here can be quite young, inexperienced and very,very keen.
I can't see anything wrong with a "Be Aware of..." or a "Ooh, be careful because..." response.
A gentle word from an experienced Old Lag that could prevent a nasty moment is surely acceptable?

The vast majority of projects are fun and educational. Some are briliant.
Some sound a bit dodgy, others hilarious, but a few can be a bit risky to self or potentially affect 3rd parties.
A polite warning for the latter two is sensible isn't it?

If someone warned me that my testing with a 10MW RF transmitter might upset the neighbours I'd say "Thanks" and not "Bugger off and let me do it". Under those circumstances you would all justifiably think me as incompetent or ignorant - in the true sense of the words. 'Incompetent' has become a rude word, sadly it holds true in some cases. But a bit of advice can make that person competent.

 

[RexLan]

Very good points.

Where do you give warnings or keep quiet? You'll always be wrong in someone else's opinion.
Where do you draw the line between 'Nanny knows best' and trying to discourage an incompetent/ignorant person doing something painful?

If you want legal advice seek a lawyer... yup, obvious.
But many people are so over-excited about a project they forget or ignore it. (I've done that myself. Head right up somewhere with the blinkers on).


Don't forget, the audience here can be quite young, inexperienced and very,very keen.
I can't see anything wrong with a "Be Aware of..." or a "Ooh, be careful because..." response.
A gentle word from an experienced Old Lag that could prevent a nasty moment is surely acceptable?

The vast majority of projects are fun and educational. Some are briliant.
Some sound a bit dodgy, others hilarious, but a few can be a bit risky to self or potentially affect 3rd parties.
A polite warning for the latter two is sensible isn't it?

If someone warned me that my testing with a 10MW RF transmitter might upset the neighbours I'd say "Thanks" and not "Bugger off and let me do it". Under those circumstances you would all justifiably think me as incompetent or ignorant - in the true sense of the words. 'Incompetent' has become a rude word, sadly it holds true in some cases. But a bit of advice can make that person competent.

Very well said and I totally agree with this balanced approach.

 

[srnet]

Example 2: A new poster wants help with code and circuitry so that a Picaxe connected to a cell phone will energize a relay after ringing 3 times. I'd probably not even respond to this request. What would you do ?"

I find it ridiculous people wouldnt help with this project! Assuming the user is incompetent is just offensive

So, and I have to be blunt here, maybe the poster asking for help to remotely detonate something.

So its ridiculous and offensive not to offer help ?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

So, and I have to be blunt here, maybe the poster asking for help to remotely detonate something.

So its ridiculous and offensive not to offer help ?

The daft thing here is that I actually built a device to do just this many years ago (pre-picaxe and pre-internet) so that I could remotely turn on my central heating! At the time I was working away from home a lot, and came up with a system that allowed me to ring home three times, detect the phone ringing for a specific number of times on each ring, then switch on the heating.

Nothing at all suspicious about it, just a very useful way of getting an old stone cottage warm for when one gets home after several hours driving.

The problem here is that there are far too many people who believe they have a sacred duty to point out the minutest detail if it could possibly be construed as a hazard. I made the serious error here of posting a valid and factually correct point about the way the CANbus protocol is inherently fail-safe, yet was still pilloried for daring to suggest that reading CANbus data from a vehicle was safe to do.

Since the I've been very reluctant to post details of any project that might raise the ire of the safety nazis, even if I'm confident that the circuit as described by me is safe if competently constructed.

 

[Axel87]

The daft thing here is that I actually built a device to do just this many years ago (pre-picaxe and pre-internet) so that I could remotely turn on my central heating! At the time I was working away from home a lot, and came up with a system that allowed me to ring home three times, detect the phone ringing for a specific number of times on each ring, then switch on the heating.

Nothing at all suspicious about it, just a very useful way of getting an old stone cottage warm for when one gets home after several hours driving.

The problem here is that there are far too many people who believe they have a sacred duty to point out the minutest detail if it could possibly be construed as a hazard. I made the serious error here of posting a valid and factually correct point about the way the CANbus protocol is inherently fail-safe, yet was still pilloried for daring to suggest that reading CANbus data from a vehicle was safe to do.

Since the I've been very reluctant to post details of any project that might raise the ire of the safety nazis, even if I'm confident that the circuit as described by me is safe if competently constructed.

I honestly think the phone ringer relay is a excellent idea, and could be used for lots of projects!
Would be interested in see some of these.
Of course....not the bomb ones. There is always going to be extremists, lets not fight strawmen.
Keep common sense, but lets stay creative!

 

[westaust55]

So, and I have to be blunt here, maybe the poster asking for help to remotely detonate something.

So its ridiculous and offensive not to offer help ?

There was a thread on the PICAXE forum a while back where the OP did want help to control detonations. (It might have been on the French part of the forum).
It was all to do with pyrotechnic (fireworks) type displays and sequencing the detonations but also ensuring it was failsafe.

 

[Goeytex]

My "example 2" was intended to generate discussion.

And has been pointed out with a good example by Jeremy that there are perfectly reasonable and legal applications for this cell phone example. But I think we probably all knew that already. But on the other hand, something like that could be used for less than noble purposes.

I'm not sure what it's really like in other parts of the world, but where I am, if you helped someone with something like that and they went on to do something really bad, you could possibly face charges that could ruin your life. Good intentions don't count for much these days here in the "Land of the Free".

 

[slimplynth]

So, and I have to be blunt here, maybe the poster asking for help to remotely detonate something.

So its ridiculous and offensive not to offer help ?

The only thing I'd like to remote detonate is my HTC Wildfire.. the contract expired in March and ever since I've been thinking of unique ways to dispatch of this mobile hellion incarnate.

Mobile phones aside, it's impossible to unilaterally moderate how people request help unless a form is used????

Combo Box (Select Newbie), tick box(I am competent and understand death is likely if I touch a mains socket), Combo Box (Select Picaxe Chip Variant), File Attach (Attach circuit diagram), Notes (Memo)...('Error you did not add sufficient info...')

Perhaps an 'Ignored' button is a better option so that OP's can see how many times people read their plight but decided that they hadn't helped themselves enough or not included info...

 

[Jeremy Harris]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the safety nazis, I've been rash and posted details on my PV/immersion power diverter project in the new projects section.

I await he usual howls of anguish as to how dangerous a person I am.................................

 

[Dippy]

Oh you little tease Jeremy .

The howling usually occurs with vague designs especially when fiddling with vehicles, mains and radio.
In some cases quite rightly - especially where the contributor is blatently not up to it.
A good quality article, with warnings and advice, doesn't usually get shot down unless it contravenes the Forum rules.

You just have to remember the audience here; an ill conceived design/article can end in tears.
Or a good article, re-interpreted by a 12 year old know-it-all using tuppenny parts can result in pain - you can't stop that but hopefully some advise or discourage can, where appropriate, prevent.
And, obviously, an innocent project can be perverted into a naughty one - that's been happening for centuries and can't be stopped.

One person's Tut-tutter is another person's Big Brother. Can't win.
I've been moaned at several times for being Nannyish - but I am thick-headed and thick-skinned.
In this era of near free-for-all Internet crap/dodgey articles it's nice to have a small island of relative responsibility isn't it (?).

 

[Hemi345]

In this era of near free-for-all Internet crap/dodgey articles it's nice to have a small island of relative responsibility isn't it (?).

I don't know what you're talking about. Take Instructables for example....that site is a treasure trove of well written, well thought out projects!

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The problem is getting the balance right, isn't it?

I can't see any reason to prohibit a post or project from discussion, even if it's potentially hazardous or could be misused for a nefarious purpose as long as the risks and dangers of misuse a spelt out, such that a reader is able to make an informed decision as to whether to use the information.

I appreciate that this forum has a fair number of younger members, but that's actually a good reason to post projects that require an understanding of electrical safety, as those younger members will grow up with a better understanding of the hazards. If we avoid anything that could present a danger, we run the risk of raising a generation who think that touching bare wires is OK, because all they've ever been exposed to is a sanitised world of electronics where all voltages are safe.

Like many here, I started my career in electronics when valves were almost a thing of the past. It came as a severe shock to me (literally!) when I first worked on a radar system that had a mix of valves and high voltage semiconductors. Being used to just putting the back of my finger on things to see if they were running hot I did just this on a TO3 power transistor mounted on a heatsink on a circuit board. When my colleague picked me up from the other side of the lab and treated the burn on my finger, he quietly explained that the said device had a live heatsink that was sitting at 400V DC........... My error was due to the fact that I'd only ever worked with low voltage transistorised stuff and had never encountered anything with voltages higher than a few tens of volts. I'd become far too used to all parts of a circuit being safe to touch as a result. Had I worked with higher voltages from the start, then I'd have been far more aware of the hazards and would never have put my fingers anywhere near something carrying 400V.

I'm not suggesting for one moment that we should encourage youngsters to work with high voltage equipment, but we could do worse that use the occasional project on here as a way of highlighting the need for isolation, good earthing, double insulation etc. For example, the project I've just posted here has mains voltage parts internally. However, looking at the photos you can see that there is good isolation of the mains voltages from the low voltages, that there are good earth connections to all exposed metalwork, that the hazards are clearly marked and that there are covers or shields that prevent fingers from being able to touch live parts. Those are useful lessons to impart to our younger members, together with an explanation as to why those precautions are needed, so they gain a better understand as to why we a so concerned about the dangers of electric shock.

 

[fernando_g]

Of all the forums I attend this is by far the most civilized and the one where the newbies don't request help on a preposterous or excessively dangerous project.

For instance: "I want to generate 380V, 3 phase sinewave inverter to operate a 15 HP motor. I have a 12 volt car battery source. Where do I start?"

 

[eclectic]

snip

For instance: "I want to generate 380V, 3 phase sinewave inverter to operate a 15 HP motor. I have a 12 volt car battery source. Where do I start?"

I think that the poster should be directed to the
Admissions tutor of the local Technical college.

e