For sale.Cold fusion reactor.Home made.Not working.$2000 ONO

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
I'm not sure what you are trying to do ( other than exploring or randomly trying things ) but PWM and PWMOUT are two entirely different commands. PWM is software generation, PWMOUT is hardware background generation of a PWM signal.

What's happening is that when you issue a PWMOUT pin,OFF or PWMOUT pin,0,0 ( they are the same ) you are actually turning background PWM generation on in order to set it to 'off'.

I must admit I'm not clear on what you see happening which is wrong and I haven't tested it nor simulated it. Perhaps you could provide an example bit of code to demonstrate what the issue is ?

My discovery was just because I happened to be using the obsolete ...

PWM PIN.#, #,#

and when it was suggested I try instead

PWMOUT PIN.#,#,#

I appended the second command to the program to experiment with it as a comparison as in the code within post 316

When I did so I got unexpected results as the

PWMOUT PIN.#, OFF

command, and the

PWMOUT PIN.#,0,0

command both failed to turn off the LED when following a prior

PWM PIN.#, #,#

command

But all is well.

Obsolete commands are obsolete commands. The only reason I was using

PWM PIN.#,#,#

was because I didnt understand the distinction between PWM and the command "PWM" when Pete suggested I look at PWM next.


But like I said obsolete commands are obsolete commands.


----------------------------------------------------------


So for your own interest, if you have a ...

PWM PIN.#, #,#

command followed at some later stage in you code by a ...

PWMOUT PIN.#,#,#

the commands...

PWMOUT PIN.#, OFF

and..

PWMOUT PIN.#,0,0

work in simulate mode, but do nothing in the real world

---------------------------

this could actually have some real world impact as C.1 can still be used with the PWM but if you try to use PWMOUT on C.1 you get

"Error: Invalid pwmout pin!" as it isn't supported.

This means that the user that has used PWMOUT on C.2 might be tempted to try PWM on C.1 as well. If they do they could be in for some grief if they want to use...

PWMOUT PIN.#, OFF

or...

PWMOUT PIN.#,0,0 .

If they try to squeeze an extra PWM'ed output out of an 08M chip, and code the PWM stuff on C.1, and then the PWMOUT stuff on C.2, they will find they cant turn off C.2.





I've checked it a few times.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
I just bought four Ni-MH batteries (Camelion 2700mAh) that claim to be 1.2 volts but I see 1.39 volts on three of them and 1.34 volts on the other one.

All four in the battery pack show 5.51 volts, after running a motor for a minute (I thought it might be because they were freshly charged or something)

Will 5.5 volts will be too much to run the PICAXE ?
 

Dippy

Moderator
That's common for that type of battery. It's at the top end of voltage supply as recommended.
Are you using an accurate (or calibrated) Multimeter? You are quoting to 2 DPs.

If you want precise and (theoretically) up to data electrical and nitty-gritty hardware specifications on PICs then go to the MICROCHIP website and download the appropriate Data Sheet. Sadly, they are quite big so you will need to spend 10 minutes searching and reading.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
I'm not sure what you are trying to do ( other than exploring or randomly trying things ) but PWM and PWMOUT are two entirely different commands. PWM is software generation, PWMOUT is hardware background generation of a PWM signal.

What's happening is that when you issue a PWMOUT pin,OFF or PWMOUT pin,0,0 ( they are the same ) you are actually turning background PWM generation on in order to set it to 'off'.

I must admit I'm not clear on what you see happening which is wrong and I haven't tested it nor simulated it. Perhaps you could provide an example bit of code to demonstrate what the issue is ?
So if for some reason the user uses pwm and follows it up later with pwmout, the last line wont kill the LED

But like I said, obsolete is obsolete.

Code:
main: 
 
     pwm 2,255,255                      'lights my first LED which stays lit for 2 seconds then goes off 
     high 1                                     'lights my second LED 
     pause 500 
     low 1                                       'Kills my second LED 
     
     pause 500
    
     pwmout 2, 63, 200                  'lights my first LED which stays on forever 
     high 1                                      'lights my second LED 
     pause 500
     low 1                                        'Kills my second LED 
     pwmout 2, OFF                        'does nothing 
     
     end
That code will simulate ok but fails to end with an 08M Firmware version 9.2 with led's and 330 ohm resistors connected to pins 1 and 2

If you comment out the first line, it ends normally.

This only came about because I was learning pwmout after originally using the obsolete pwm and was comparing the two.
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
I just bought four Ni-MH batteries (Camelion 2700mAh) that claim to be 1.2 volts but I see 1.39 volts on three of them and 1.34 volts on the other one.

All four in the battery pack show 5.51 volts, after running a motor for a minute (I thought it might be because they were freshly charged or something)

Will 5.5 volts will be too much to run the PICAXE ?
That's normal and the PICAXE will run fine but when it's above 5.5v the life of the PICAXE may be shortened (better term: premature failure).
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
That's normal and the PICAXE will run fine but when it's above 5.5v the life of the PICAXE may be shortened (better term: premature failure).
Thanks nick

I really don't understand this voltage stuff :)

12 car batteries that are really 14 volts and 1.2 volt rechargeable that are really 1.4 volts.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
Thanks eclectic, but I think that document is a little out of my league.

I can understand some of the english words*, and see a graph that seems to go to 5.5 volts so I'm going with "yeah that'll be fine" :)

This is only week three for me with this electronics caper :)

* but some of them may have other meanings - from page 257 - "BUS COLLISION DURING A STOP CONDITION"
 
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John West

Senior Member
Thanks nick

I really don't understand this voltage stuff :)

12 car batteries that are really 14 volts and 1.2 volt rechargeable that are really 1.4 volts.
Batteries are just a string of chemical containers that are producing a reaction that generates an approximate voltage for each type pf chemical composition. Lead acid reactions are nominally about two volts generated by each chemical cell. Each electro-chemical cell type has its own nominal voltage. Larger cells have a higher current capacity, but the voltage stays the same, thus the reason for stringing cells in a series as a battery

During discharge from full charge, no electro-chemical cells will hold an exact voltage. The actual voltage of each cell will follow a standard voltage drop curve for that type of cell. A "full" lead acid cell will start at about 2.3 volts and drop down in voltage to about 1.8 volts when discharged. It will operate at a voltage plateau of about 2 volts for quite awhile during discharge. So instead of describing the cell or battery of cells by a voltage discharge curve under various loads, it's much easier to just describe the cell or battery by its nominal working voltage, i.e. the voltage it spends its time closest to during discharge.

A 12 volt automotive battery consists of 6 series coupled approximately 2 volt lead-acid cells. Thus it's a 12 volt battery. About 13.8 V fully charged. About 10.5 to 11 V once the reaction is about finished, meaning the point on the discharge curve where the voltage is about to rapidly drop off to nearly nothing.
 
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120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
The actual voltage depends on the load current, a NiMh may well be 1.2v on load.
I thought that might have something to do with it, so I checked it with a motor running (but I guess the motor wasn't under load, and I think that must change things as well (conservation of energies and all)). The voltage stayed pretty much the same, and I wasn't sure if a PICAXE running would be considered much of a load.

My original three 1.5 volt pack is still running fine after being on for most of the last three weeks as I've been experimenting :)
 

westaust55

Moderator
My original three 1.5 volt pack is still running fine after being on for most of the last three weeks as I've been experimenting
Your “original” 3 x 1.5 V AA cells may have a cell capacity of the order of 2500 mAh.

A PICAXE chip itself only draws a few millamps (mA). If you have been turning LED’s on and off with sereis current limiting resistors of the order of 330 Ohm to 520 Ohms the current into the LED will be in the range of around 5 to 12 mA.
So with lots of assumptions, if the LED’s were on half the time and the PICAXE continuously powered the average current might be say 13 mA. Those 2500 MA batteries can nominally support that load for around 2500 / 13 = 192 hours.
Battery rating are stated at a given discharge rate such as C/5.
If you draw a higher current continuously then the actually cell capacity is in effect reduced, whereas if you draw a lesser current, the available capacity can be greater.
 

Dippy

Moderator
120, there are many useful resources on the wide range of topics you discuss here.

I would suggest a good look around at reliable resources.
Many places have pictures and graphs which really help to imprint information on your memory.

Some manufacturers produce really good Data sheets too, and some even give non-specialist descriptive info.

It really would be worth your time having a look around.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
120, there are many useful resources on the wide range of topics you discuss here.

I would suggest a good look around at reliable resources.
Many places have pictures and graphs which really help to imprint information on your memory.

Some manufacturers produce really good Data sheets too, and some even give non-specialist descriptive info.

It really would be worth your time having a look around.
I really, really appreciate all you input.

I actually average between 3 to 6 hours a day in study, even if it doesn't seem like it from my posts here.

On top of that, I tend to spend between 30 seconds and 1 or 2 hours a day knocking out a blog post depending on the quality of the day. ( I quit TV a year and a half ago and don't have kids :) )

But in spite of the lazy stance that some of these questions might seem to convey, I really do try to look this stuff up.

As an example, try to find an answer to one of my first questions I asked. "Does a resistor work like a tap, or a leak".

Try to find the answer from the point of view of someone who has been interested in electronics for 3 days.

I couldn't find an answer, and I'm still unsure, in spite of everyone's efforts and kindness.

by way of "distracting off topic content" .......

I think the problem is the water analogy breaks down because the real answer isn't that's it's like either. I suspect it's a bit like a tap, and a bit like a leak. It leaks energy in the form of heat, but doesn't shed any electrons, so it isn't like either. I suspect it's more like a tap with a pump within a closed loop rather than a a tap at the bottom of a dam, and the pump is doing what it can, but wasting energy pushing shi(p) uphill but not actually leaking any water, just energy in the form of heat. This means it both leaks and doesn't. Water and electricity don't seem much like each other after all.

But if I try to be totally honest, no matter how hard I've tried to understand all the help I've received, and how much stuff Ive read, I still don't have a clue about what seems to be the second most basic component after wire, does, or have a clue how it does it. :)

One of the issues with trying to learn as much disparate stuff as I try, is that there is often no prior general obsession and background to the subject.

That's not to say that I'm not a keen student, but I don't have the interest from childhood or whatever, that a lot of people might have.

We learn our languages early with ease.

Later, not so much.

My path is one of knowing a little about a lot of stuff.

What this can pan out to, is that sometimes I don't really understand what questions to ask of google. Sometimes I just don't have the language.

In fact, I find myself in my mum's position a lot. My mum's searches are a different language from her native english. It's brought to light when I see her struggling with a google search.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
We might be roughly 18,738,095 times better at finding a device for cutting wood with an illuminating attachment than mum is, but it's only because she doesn't know what to search for.


Look at that number...


18,738,095 times better.


That's not google search hits, that's a ratio.


Eighteen million, seven hundred, thirty eight thousand, and ninety five times better at something than someone else.


Read that line again.


Not even TV Ninja can claim that. And TV Ninja claim a lot.


If you click those two links and look at the numbers of hits involved, you get to see it from my mum's point of view.


Language is everything. We can narrow a search down to a page of results, but only if we know which words to use.


Obvious.


But mum knows many more English words than I do, she just cant speak Power Tool, or at least is blissfully unfamiliar with just how many net users are being abducted by aliens. (should you capitalise the word "Aliens"?)


I really am reading a lot even though it might seem like I'm not.


I'm looking around like a madman :)


The questions I ask are those that I cant nail down with my shi(pp)y grasp on the search terms, or those that have me asking the wrong questions out of confusion (See my posts about b.1 vrs c.1 on 08M chips for a confusing and/or confused example).


I do find it difficult to pin down data sheets for different components I rip out of things left out on the street, or even things I've bought.


Is there some place (that's free) that you can recommend as a source for data sheets for all manner of components, or do I just need to search with google as I'm doing, and wade through all the results?


For instance, I have a motor.


The only markings are N287, and it's kind of shiny.


Now what?
 

Dippy

Moderator
The answer is simple 120, you just post your question here and let eclectic do the hard work for you.
Everyone else does ;)

Seriously though, I'm afraid it is often down to the hard graft of searching.
You post your divers questions here and the combined cerebral encyclopaedia answers them.
If the Brains trust here don't know the the answer they spend time searching for you.
Just think of how many (free) man-hours of help you've had on this thread alone.

Therefore, sorry to say, sometimes you'll just have to Google or go to the Manuf's website or go to big suppliers like Farnell and Digikey and tap away for hours.
We often have to do it and we often have to do it for others free of charge or favour, so now it's your turn :)
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
The answer is simple 120, you just post your question here and let eclectic do the hard work for you.
Everyone else does ;)

Seriously though, I'm afraid it is often down to the hard graft of searching.
You post your divers questions here and the combined cerebral encyclopaedia answers them.
If the Brains trust here don't know the the answer they spend time searching for you.
Just think of how many (free) man-hours of help you've had on this thread alone.

Therefore, sorry to say, sometimes you'll just have to Google or go to the Manuf's website or go to big suppliers like Farnell and Digikey and tap away for hours.
We often have to do it and we often have to do it for others free of charge or favour, so now it's your turn :)
The help I've received is amazing. And I really do appreciate all the hours you people have put into teaching a total stranger. It's a shame the rest of the world doesn't behave a bit more like forums.

So much help. More than anywhere else so far, and I'm on a lot of forums.

The last week and a bit, has been concentrating on learning to program these amazing little chips, and has been a lot easer than trying to understand electronics.

But I generally feel a lot more comfortable answering questions than asking them, so I look forward to that turn-around point where I can start to contribute to the forum rather than just being all take.

I've learnt an amazing amount in three weeks thanks to everyone's input.

I nearly answered a question the day before last, but chickened out when I noticed that my status now read "Senior Member" and I thought I might be considered too reliable :)

Give me a week, and I'll start giving wire stripping advice. I think I've got that down :)
 

eclectic

Moderator
I wasnt actually asking you to find it for me, but that's not it. :)

It's little.

But the question was more just about getting any advice on good places to start.

I can figure out a bit about it because I'm getting a bit better at understanding what my multi-metre is trying to tell me.
1. A good place to start?
Metacognition.

Arrange it so that you can ask a relevant question.

Electric motor N287 produces possible responses from Altavista and Google.

little is a lot too vague.
How about some exact measurements?

It isn't where you search;
it's what you search with.

e
 

MartinM57

Moderator
But if I try to be totally honest, no matter how hard I've tried to understand all the help I've received, and how much stuff Ive read, I still don't have a clue about what seems to be the second most basic component after wire, does, or have a clue how it does it. :)
You probably know enough by now to only keep the analogy as a handy thing in your background knowledge (but even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law mentions the hydraulic analogy)...

Resistor behaviour is defined Ohm's Law (V=IR, V/I=R or I =V/R) and is worth getting to grips with...that's what resistors actually do in electrical circuits

...as are potential dividers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_divider) - get some resistors and a battery, wire them up and probe around with a multimeter - and compare the results with the mathematical theory

Analogies are good, to a point, but I wouldn't spend hours thinking (and writing) about how they don't quite make sense when looked at from certain points of view...

EDIT ...and then you can get your mind around http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thévenin's_theorem which is also a piece of fundamental circuit theory (although the chances of you needing it for PICAXE work is fairly remote - but it is mentioned in the forum occasionally - have a search) :D
 
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120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
1. A good place to start?
Metacognition.

Arrange it so that you can ask a relevant question.

Electric motor N287 produces possible responses from Altavista and Google.

little is a lot too vague.
How about some exact measurements?

It isn't where you search;
it's what you search with.

e
No really. I don't want you to find it for me :)

I'm trying to learn how to learn.

Often a person finds themselves without the ability to decide what information is quality and what isn't. I was hoping there might be a website that was everyone's "go-to web site" for component datasheets.

To this end, I phrased my question using my natural language. If I speak funny, I apologise. I'm doing my best.

My aim was to ask for people's personal opinions of the many sites that offer collated information on data sheets from many different companies, and if possible get some recommendations.

I have spent, I would guess, a total of around an hour and a half trying to find a datasheet on my little motor, and suspected their might have been a better way.
 

westaust55

Moderator
This thread is gradually revolving through the entire range of electronics through batteries, wire, resistors, soldering techniques, solering irons and even PICAXE programming.
That is not a serious issue but at the end of the day it is becoming an absolute jumble of topics that will be hard for anyone to find useful information within later.
It is in effect becoming a many to one electronics traning course.

Now I have no problem in 120ThingsIn20Years asking his/her questions but feel it could all be better organised.

As a thought, it might be worthwhile considering starting a new thread for each particular topic with a more related title.
That will make it easier for folks, maybe other newbies or at least those helping newbies, in the future to search particularly on thread titles (which can be done with the Advanced Search) when seeking information.
 

westaust55

Moderator
No really. I don't want you to find it for me :)

I'm trying to learn how to learn.
Honestly, the best way to learn is to read and try it yourself. Then if there are problems that cannot be overcome post a question here.


Often a person finds themselves without the ability to decide what information is quality and what isn't. I was hoping there might be a website that was everyone's "go-to web site" for component datasheets.

My aim was to ask for people's personal opinions of the many sites that offer collated information on data sheets from many different companies, and if possible get some recommendations.
Try: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/
No one website has everything from my experience but that site has a very extensive range of datasheets.

I have spent, I would guess, a total of around an hour and a half trying to find a datasheet on my little motor, and suspected their might have been a better way.
This situation has cropped up here many times before when someone buys a product (often cheap fropm E-Bay), then cannot find a datsaheet and comes here for help.
There have been times when I have spent time over days to find information about some items such as an LCD display from a mobile phone.
Unless you are prepared to put in some serious effort, the best policy is to ensure that you can get access to a datasheet Before you purchase an item.
 

lbenson

Senior Member
Someone coming to this thread later would find it an absolute jumble, but on a day-to-day basis, I have found it interesting as a ramble by someone new to the field, but willing to learn. I certainly have not read the questions as coming from someone who wanted to be spoonfed, and have not discounted the likely hours of time spent searching and reading and pondering before a question is asked.

I also appreciate the thoughtful responses given by so many--as a non-electronics person, I like to see fundamental issues addressed from time to time from different points of view.

So all I can say is, "Keep digging and keep asking". If you have a particular project in mind, starting a new thread would be advisable, but if continuing the ramble, here would seem as good a place to me as any.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
Someone coming to this thread later would find it an absolute jumble, but on a day-to-day basis, I have found it interesting as a ramble by someone new to the field, but willing to learn. I certainly have not read the questions as coming from someone who wanted to be spoonfed, and have not discounted the likely hours of time spent searching and reading and pondering before a question is asked.

I also appreciate the thoughtful responses given by so many--as a non-electronics person, I like to see fundamental issues addressed from time to time from different points of view.

So all I can say is, "Keep digging and keep asking". If you have a particular project in mind, starting a new thread would be advisable, but if continuing the ramble, here would seem as good a place to me as any.
AAAGgghhh! I have another window open with half an apology typed and a closing statement to the thread when I received an email notice that there was yet another post.

So to reiterate...

AAGgghhh!

:)
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
Thanks westaust55 and thanks to everyone else who has made this first part of my education so much better than it might have been.

I take your point about the thread, it has turned into a bit of a monster.

I guess this thread has been about me, and my education rather than anything more specific. I'll post questions elsewhere from this point on.

Thanks again for everyone concerned, it's been an amazing 22 day ride so far. I've learnt so much stuff in these last few weeks. Much more than reading this thread might indicate. Enough that I feel I can make stuff as desired, which is pretty amazing given my total lack of knowing anything about electronics only a few weeks ago.

I started this thread with a statement like "I could perhaps build a torch on a good day, but couldn't make it it turn itself on automatically when it got dark".

Well now I can, and if needs be I could do it only on the 29th of February, only if it's a warm night, and only if I'm wearing blue, and standing at a particular longitude and latitude.

That's some pretty pretty cool shi(p).

I owe you all a beer/cup of tea.

Thanks again.
 

SAborn

Senior Member
I owe you all a beer/cup of tea.
Well you best fire up the urn for Hippy, Tap the keg for Dippy, and pop a stubby in the "fridge" for me, and expect a few more orders from the other guys. :D

I can see a party brewing here.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
Instead of brewing you drinks, I've started a project.

I'm brewing me drinks, but I've also started a project.

I'm rebuilding my original demand fish feeder, and have cobbled together a rough outline as to how it should work.

I'll start a thread on my favourite aquaponics forum and I'll get some other local pickaxe people involved, and attempt to convert all the others to see the PICAXE light.

I think that makes me an Evangelical PICAXEist.(C)

Tomorrow morning sees me getting a visit from some Dr type person from UniSA (one of our fine, local universities) to have a peek at my aquaponics system, (I spent the last 3 days getting my system up to spec) so I'll try to get him/her involved/excited about the potential control abilities of the PICAXE platform as it relates to aquaponics as well. I'm told they are putting together a research/teaching thing. Surly fluid dynamics people are always handy people to have kicking around on one's speed dial (No doubt their knowledge will help with a few of my other projects (are any of you people fluid people? I have even more questions about fluids than I do about electronics, and I have a stack of questions about electronics :) [Add closing brackets as required, I've lost track]))))

If you happen to have fluid dynamics science, and feel I need even more help/karmic debt, PM me about your willingness to help with a fluids question. If there is one thing I've learnt reading through this forum, it's that you people have a stack of talents that may not be listed on your profile pages. It becomes obvious by your project selection.

For anyone who is following my electronics education progress, I'm currently trying to figure out ways to extract as much goodness out of 8 pins as I can. This is as much for the purposes of self discipline as much as any actual need to save the worlds silicone resources (are there silicone huggers in the way that there are tree huggers? If so I'm going to join them on the beaches)

From reading about other peoples projects, I get the feeling this is a common affliction. Should I spend the extra $3 and buy the next chip up, or should I simply add a stack of extra components and complexity and struggle on as if I were in the dark ages.

It's 2am. The answer, I feel, is in bed.
 

Dippy

Moderator
If I have parsed the above correclty, this thread will be tangentialising onto fluid queries and wet plants - good luck team :)


Yes, buy one of each PICAXE and a box full of discretes, chips and passives.
 

120ThingsIn20Years

Senior Member
I was going to quote your last message, but perhaps I better not.

How silly is that.
Some forum software uses quotes to tell the user that their comment has been responded to.

I've found that within the tens of thousands of forum posts I've made and the many more that I've read, that sometimes threads can be so busy that by the time you finish typing a reply, another post has been dropped in. This can lead to a stack of confusion and people taking offence.

If I were to agree with you and say "I guess that was a silly thing to do" without quoting your text, and someone had written something in the interim, they might think I was sending them a rude response. Within just this thread I had someone post on at least three occasions before I put up the response I was typing.

I try to avoid rude responses. :)

So if that was a question. Not silly. :)
 
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