flying uav update - not good

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
i haven't been here for a while mostly due to some problems with the wife and her health and a debt i'm chasing,

the flying uav looks like it's not going to be, after many many email conversations with CASA and the FAA and various other government bodies including RAAF it's going to cost a lot of money for the uav to meet the regulations so for the moment it's on the back burner for a long while

so i've decided that a UAB (unmanned autonamous boat) is on the cards since the regulations are easy to meet and it'll be a hell of a lot easier to build not to mention cheaper

i was pondering on some kind of solar/wind powered picaxe controlled gps guided boat

i know the idea sounds a little optimistic/crazy and is unlikely to actaully be possible but i can imagine sending somthing like this on a trip to another country for it to meet up with someone on this forum at some beach or bay of some type
 

craig008

New Member
solar cells sounds a good one if you can get the area, maybe look into a heat exchanger that could be towed buy the boat, then use the heat to make electric or you could teach it how to sail!! that could take some time.

if you where to use solar cells you may have to have some for driving it during the day and some for chargering the batteries so it did not power down over night and become lost/disoriented.

as for the idea could be complex, interface wit GPS could be a bit interesting if it is any help sony are realising a gps unit for the psp soon that is usb interface to the device, although there will be some complex protcools to get through
________
R-2
 
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Wrenow

Senior Member
Actually, the GPS interface is not difficult with the stuff available from Sparkfun - after all, it is a simple serial stream, and there are several who have parsed it. The main issues I see are being rugged enough to handle the weather and the energy to run the craft. A surplus lifeboat might make a nice platform, but would take a fair amount of energy to move. Sometimes you can get them from breaker yards/scrapyards for pretty cheap, and they are designed to take the seas.

If you are going to sail, I think you might want to go with non-conventional sails, like coriolis sails, rotating cylinders, etc. or you are going to get into a ton of complex variables, strain guages, tilt sensors,etc. as well as vairly complex logic for tacking and other sailing isssues.

If you were going with a smaller model, I will give you a fr'instance. My Lake Shore 22" 3 island tramp steamer has 2ea 3000MAh batteries(NiMH, great energy density), draws about 0.25A. Thus, it will go about 4x6=24 hours. At about 2.5kph surface speed, it will have, theoretically, a maximum range of about 60 miles. However, a 1-2" ripple is like a 12'-24' wave :eek: to the real thing, and many currents are more than 2.5 knots.:confused:

As I ponder the increases in size needed for seakeeping, and strength to handle the forces involved, I come back to the conclusion that the minimum size you are going to get away with is probably about the size of a lifeboat, even if you can seal it thoroughly.

Do remember to seal all of the electronics with 3M Scotchkote - that salt air is murder. Also, presume leaks and allow for for them. Murphy will be on board.:p You have met Murphy, right?

Cheers,

Wreno
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
I've never been one to say don't be ambitious but it usually helps to do something simpler first and then build on that. A 'standard' autonomous buggy is probably hard enough to get right and that's with the ground bolted down and going nowhere.
 

Coyoteboy

Senior Member
I have to agree that a full autonomous craft for use in an open ocean is not a simple task at all and even full research teams of dedicated scientists find this sort of thing rather hard to get right - start small and build up to avoid dissappointment!
 

Tom2000

Senior Member
Paraphrasing dialog from "The Right Stuff:"

"You know what makes these rockets fly?"

"Well.. it's complicated. Uh..."

"FUNDING! Funding is what gets these rockets up in space..."

This project is well above the level an individual might reasonably pay for out of the hobby budget and build in a garage. As far as I know, no one has built an autonomous vessel capable of a transoceanic voyage to a programmed destination. This is cutting edge stuff you're working on, DPG. You're going to set records.

You're going to need lots of help, and lots of money. Sponsorship is where you must begin. To interest a sponsor, you'll have to demonstrate, at a minimum, that you're capable of directing the project to a reasonable chance of a successful conclusion.

To demonstrate that your idea has merit, you'll need to build a proof-of-concept vessel. Something small that is capable of an autonomous voyage of, say, several kilometers to a programmed destination, probably over an inland waterway. And you'll probably have to demonstrate successful voyages over and over as potential sponsors observe.

So, as hippy said, start small. Then progress as the project leads you.

Perhaps your first contact might be with a local university. If you can interest them in the concept, there's a source of assistance, labor, brainpower, and perhaps some initial funding.

Sponsors? Maybe the Australian Americas Cup organization. Shipping companies. Larry Ellison. RevEd? (Technical, imagine the publicity you'll receive as "SS Picaxe" sails up the Thames. :) )

This is a huge undertaking, and a breathtaking program. I wish you success!

Tom
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
I'll second the suggestions of perhaps a little easier to start with.
I can't remember the thread name but an automomous sail boat has been covered in great detail before on this forum. Worth having a browse in the archives. It covered full PID control working from GPS data but certainly did not attempt sea going:eek:
 

Wrenow

Senior Member
I both agree and disagree. The reasons why an aquatic craft might be simpler (than a buggy) are that it generally does not have to find/navigate around obstructions. Open water has no roads to follow, and generally, few obstructions (other than islands and continents, of course). All it has to do is float on the surface, and it then moves (for the most part) freely in the other two dimensions on that plane. Open sea adds some additional dynamics in the form of waves and storms, of course, but I see navigation of a boat by GPS as easier than navigation of even a much shorter distance via ground. However, that is why I recommended starting with a surplus lifeboat as a platform - it is designed to handle those issues. Also, I feel that will be pretty close to where he will end up if he decides to go forward, and gives him a frame of reference. If that looks doable to DPG, then he will have, I think, more reasonable expectations.

Should you start wit a smaller vessel? Perhaps, to work the bugs out. But, with the lifeboat, you have something you can toodle around in for fun on the water even if the project doesn't work out. Dual use is a good thing.

For smaller hulls, Bowning Shipyards in Australia, one of the largest manufactureres of 1/144 scale R/C Model Warship Combat ship hulls in the world, has hulls for 6' warships available (the Yamato and the Iowa are both 6' long, but the Yamato is a bit beamier and more stable). They have other, smaller hulls as well, and they are made of fiberglass, and are very sturdy (they are, of course, made for combat). I have 3-4 of their hulls, and my first ship was a 22" 3 island tramp steamer, which was the smallest ship in our fleet for years. I now have an even smaller ship, also a Bowning hull. http://www.ausbg.org/BSY/

There are also several captains in the AUSBG that could offer advice on construction. All that I have met are friendly/helpful chaps.

Of course, these would not fare terribly well in the open sea, but in lakes, with good weather, should be fine.

Cheers,

Wreno
 
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Tom2000

Senior Member
I'll second the suggestions of perhaps a little easier to start with.
I can't remember the thread name but an automomous sail boat has been covered in great detail before on this forum. Worth having a browse in the archives. It covered full PID control working from GPS data but certainly did not attempt sea going:eek:
I just looked that thread up. Very interesting.

Dennis' difficulty implementing a directional control system hammers home the immensity of this project. Rather than an development of a number of control systems, the foundation of this project will actually be construction of an artificial intelligence system.

Quite an undertaking.

Tom
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
If the advantage of an autonomous plane or boat is lack of obstacles which a buggy may face then simply put the buggy in an environment where there are no obstacles; a large empty field or desert.

It all boils down to what one is trying to achieve.

An ocean going boat doesn't really face any less difficulty in avoiding objects, it's just that those obstacles are further apart and less likely to be encountered. The problem of obstacles is always there as people driving across huge empty deserts with their eyes closed have found to their cost.
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
i thought of a buggy but it's been done to death already

a boat, considering the lack of current records set,easier construction and probably cheaper i think is the next logical step,

i've already spoken to the NSW Maritime mob they pretty much don't want to know about it, unless it's going to be used for drug smuggling or terrorism purposes

as for the construction of the boat i'm thinking of somthing the size of a long board with a couple of 12v20ah sealed lead acid batteries with a simple vertical wind turbine and a 200 watt solar panel on top a 100watt electric motor should push it through the water quite well

i've picked out a nice spot already where i'm going to do some testing and the good people at NSW Maritime are going to send me a list of places i can test it at with things like strong currents and obsticles

as for naming it ,I like "SS PICAXE" as for it going up the thames i'd like the see that!

the one thing i'm going to have trouble with is any long journey i send this boat on how am i going to know if it say get blown off course by a cyclone or generally knowing where it is

and the other thing is how accurately can i trust the coordinates on google earth?

hippy, ideally what i'm trying to achieve is a autonamous boat that could actaully cross entire oceans and quite literally sail into a bay or a harbour ideally if i can get my name into the record books it'll be real dandy...
 
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Wrenow

Senior Member
DPG,

A Yamato/Musashi hull would probably be close to the size you need to hold the batteries. The dimensions are on the BSY web site, but it runs about 1820mm long with a beam of 273mm. If you wanted something even more stable (and more room for solar panels), you could take two of these hulls an join them to make a catamaran. We generally put anywhere from 7-20Ah 6v SLAs in our hulls, along with CO2 systems, guns, pumps, etc. and still need ballast. 6v SLAs have the advantage of not needing much stepping down to handle the electronics. A simple diode in-line will generally provide enough drop. You are talking about 100w of propulsion. That means, at 12v, about 8A, right?
You should be able to get by with quite a bit less, if you don't need terribly high speeds.

Basically, you can get a fiberglass hull from Bowning, build it with a relatively smooth deck superstructure, fill all the available space after equipment and ballasting with foam, etc. and it should be reasonably weather resistant.

As for the navs, you know the current position and the intended position. Factor in the major landmasses as obstacle's or, easier, put in intermediary waypoints far away from landmasses. It may not be a straight line route (might even be a spiral), but it should get you there eventually, regardless of odd currents. Kind of. In theory. Not quite that simple but that is the general idea.

Again, the AUSBG guys might have some useful brain pickings on this subject. Me, I am only an honorary "press-ganged member" of the Newcastle Battle Group (overseas section), so I can't make personal introductions, but several are in the Canberra and Sydney area.

Cheers,

Wreno
 

andrew_qld

Senior Member
I feel for you with the CASA Regulations. A few years ago we were going to hang an amateur radio HF antenna from a wether balloon and the red tape involved with that was a nightmare.

I remember seeing some new lifeboat designs a few years ago with very smooth surfaces, curved solar panels, completely water sealed, all free space filled with expanding foam. This would be the way to go I think.

If you have a wind turbine sticking out the top you also need a keel or something to keep it upright. Some form of telemetry would be nice- a sat phone would be too expensive but maybe some HF radio beacons on diferent frequencies that sent out basic telemetry- lat/long/battery-volts etc

I wish you all the best!

Andrew
 

Fowkc

Senior Member
dpag said:
as for naming it ,I like "SS PICAXE" as for it going up the thames i'd like the see that!
You could keep it going up the canal to Bath. You'd need someone to operate the locks though...

Maybe we could start a competition. "Return a PICAXE to its creators by the most laborious route." Royal Mail doesn't count.
 

Grant Fleming

Senior Member
DPG,

You are talking about 100w of propulsion. That means, at 12v, about 8A, right?
You should be able to get by with quite a bit less, if you don't need terribly high speeds.

100Watts! You could stop the propellor from initially turning with your finger! The vessel will just be at the mercy of sea currents most of the time. This coupled with the fact that a lifeboat hull is just designed for maximum buoyancy and comfort for occupants in a rough sea. Lifeboats are shaped like a bathtub and they travel like one, very inefficient hull design for propelling through the water, also greatly affected by wind. 100 Watts will be wasted. Cargo and passenger vessels with tens of thousands of kilowatts can be forced backwards in heavy weather and currents for many hours on end.
Much more chance getting your PICAXE across an ocean by placing it with a message in a bottle!
Trying to contribute here: maybe need a craft something that is cigar shaped that has 'no right way up' so there is no such thing as capsized. May have to fight it's way out of a fishing net or seaweed! As you can see there are many,many things to consider.

Cheers,
Grant
 

Dippy

Moderator
Why not make a seawater battery for extra oomph - particularly at night?

I often wonder whether a big wind turbine on small boat is counterproductive??? Big turbine = big sail + wind blowing wrong way for desired course. mmm... love to test it out rather than theorise. Unless you can include an auto-tack routine :)

A asked me to design him an autonomous sub a few years ago. It would pop up now and then for a quick GPS. I turned him down as I wasn't happy with the intended cargo. Wouldn't have worked anyway.
 

ljg

New Member
If you are going to have a real go at it, check out what other folks are doing

One contestant

and the rules for the contest.
Microtransat Challenge

according to the website, a conference and trials took place in September. I'm sure there is still time to enter for the transat part.
 

Brietech

Senior Member
A friend and I are actually looking into trying something similar! We are going for the "small" route, however, with plans (at the moment) to use a ~30 inch boat. The idea of a "fire and forget" boat is too fun to pass up =) Our theory (and feel free to correct us if we're missing anything glaringly obvious!) is that if we make the boat really small (instead of lifeboat sized), it can get knocked about by waves without too much actual force being applied to it (along the same lines of how ants have strong exoskeletons, but they don't scale up).

We want to make a really sturdy, dead-simple, solar-powered design. It will have GPS and a magnetometer to tell direction, and hopefully it will just drive until a pre-designated low-voltage level is reached, hang out until it recharges, and then start up again, in an infinite loop. I figure as long as it is sufficiently waterproof and bottom-heavy, we shouldn't have to worry about capsizing.

Maybe with Wrenow's help, our boats can meet in the Atlantic for some open-sea warfare =)
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
the one you see in the microtransat website is probably about the best measure of how big i want to go with it with the exception of the height the wind turbine however will only be about 30cm tall 30cm wide and it'll be sitting 40cm above the main deck of the boat

for the actaul hull my neighbour suggested using a second hand fibreglass canoe as they are very streamlined and with a weighted keel should be very stable even in rough seas
being streamlined as canoe tends to be a 100 watt motor should almost be over kill for it but i'll find all that out with some testing

the only reason i want to fit a wind turbine is so that it can still travel at night to one degree or another and also be able charge batteries at every availble opertunity when the wind blows where as the solar panels will really only be effective for 1/3 of the day
i see it as a fairly sensable idea as on the open ocean a good wind is in some cases more abundant than the sun

also with some carefull route planning the wind pushing on the wind turbine and acting like a classic sail could at some point be benificial
 

Wrenow

Senior Member
Grant,
Let's not confuse the platforms. While 100W would be quite small, and likely inneffective, for a Lifeboat sized vessel, for a 6 foot warship hull in R/C Warship Combat, it is more than adequate for 3-4 kph based on experience.

Brietech,
Bowning Shipyards has plenty of choices of hulls in the about 30" range as well. A Liberty Ship hull, for instance.

DPG,
You might find the hulls form Bowning to be cheaper than the canoe. While a canoe is nice and long and streamlined, this enhances the speed/power ratio at the expense of maneuverability. You would find the Bowning hulls far more maneuverable.

Cheers,

Wreno
 
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Tom2000

Senior Member
Yes, I agree. If you're going to motor, a wind turbine is almost essential. Look into the vertical designs.

Here's some inspiration for you, and might give you an idea of conditions a small hull might face out on the open ocean.

In 1965, Bob Manry sailed the Atlantic in a sailboat just over 4 meters in length. His story of the crossing, "Tinkerbelle," is now available as a free ebook, linked above.

(I lived in Cleveland at the time, and had just graduated from high school when Manry made his voyage. His exploits were an inspiration to me, and the main reason I bought a sailboat as soon as I could afford one.)

It's quite a yarn. Enjoy!

Tom
 
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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
with the Bowning hulls i'm going to ring them sometime this week and see if i can go and have a look the added advantage would be as well is that it won't be as hard dealing with the propeller with one of those vs a canoe hull i might be able to fibreglass one myself

i'm going to print that online book as from first glance it looks to be an interesting and usefull read
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
no i hadn't seen that one yet, but it is somewhat inspiring considing it's size and weight

the idea of a flying uav isn't completely dead yet just on the ole' back burner if i did it in the future some time i might lean towards a dual rotor helicopter of some description

i think the record for longest distance travelled by uav is only about 13,000 km which really gets put into perspective when you look at things like this

http://www.barnardmicrosystems.com/L...rossing_II.htm

a boat however, equipt with the proper solar panel(s) and wind turbine should providing it is built rugged enough should be able to circumnavigate the globe

my question is that how reliable would the data on google earth actaully be?

then there is the communication issue ... ideally it would be good if i could know where exactly it was every minute of the day and maybe even set new waypoints by long distance remote,
i was thinking of using a simple morsecode system over the cb bands

could go a little extreme and look at a moonbounce technique.....
 

Grant Fleming

Senior Member
DPG,

C.B bands are for voice only and are useless for this application anyway, just short range stuff. The guys involved in the sucessfull transatlantic flight would have used amateur radio satellites with radio telemetery using similiar commands like used for your PICAXE, not Morse code! Ever considered becoming an amateur radio operator? It opens up a whole new world.

Cheers,
Grant (VK2HHC)
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Speech Synthesiser + CB = Voice only over CB = Licence Compliant.

CB's back on the list.
 

Brietech

Senior Member
Satellite phones will be prohibitively expensive. I've also been looking into getting a HAM license for this project, as there are even some satellites that let you bounce off I believe, but I'm not sure if that is realistic or not. At the moment, we're thinking a GSM phone with a good roaming plan =) It turns out that many cell phones can work ~15-30 miles offshore, depending on a lot of conditions, of course. I'm really not sure how one goes about communicating with something in the middle of the Atlantic (could you reliably bounce off the ionosphere that far?)

Here is an example of a micro wind generator: http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/microsavonius.htm
 

Grant Fleming

Senior Member
Speech Synthesiser + CB = Voice only over CB = Licence Compliant.

CB's back on the list.
As if you would find a your own dedicated quiet channel that no-one else would be using on C.B. Have you ever tried to listen to the rubbish/noise that goes on in the citizen bands? Just how would you achieve two-way C.B communication in the middle of the ocean? Not too many repeaters floating around that I've seen!

Cheers,
Grant
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
As if you would find a your own dedicated quiet channel that no-one else would be using on C.B. Have you ever tried to listen to the rubbish/noise that goes on in the citizen bands? Just how would you achieve two-way C.B communication in the middle of the ocean? Not too many repeaters floating around that I've seen!

Cheers,
Grant
it's going to be an interesting one to solve

one idea i had while wandering the streets of western sydney was to use an stock standard mobile phone and plan the route along the coast you generally get mobile reception along the coast of australia i'm not sure about everywhere else

the global roaming option would allow it to call another dedicated phone or sms or maybe even gprs

opens up the option of driving it up the thames via gprs and a video call
 

moxhamj

New Member
Satellite phone means you won't have to reinvent the wheel. One big problem is making things robust. Cruising along in a harbour in a small model boat is fine, but think about some of the storms a few years back in the Sydney-Hobart - broken masts, broken centreplates, smashed up boats. Four metre waves crashing down on a boat is not easy to handle. It must be able to survive that and also being capsized. Not many things can survive but one object that does is the flotilla of rubber ducks http://www.weirdasianews.com/2007/09/04/survivor-duck-15-years-and-17000-miles-later/

So if there is a solar panel anywhere on this boat it is going to need to be absolutely water proof. Maybe some of the new flexible solar cells might be better than a rigid panel. The propellor will need to be capable of handling being fouled by weeds etc. If there are any leaks there will need to be a bilge pump. Salt water corrodes everything very fast. Lots of problems and I'm sure they have all been solved by someone. The robotic fish idea running on another thread may be worth exploring. It is almost worth building it as a "mostly surface" submarine rather than a boat.
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
i'm starting to wonder if it would be possible to have a small buggy controlled via gprs and video call and have the uav boat take it to a boat ramp near the picaxe office then drive the buggy remotely to the picaxe office... i doubt it would be possible to get it to work without a hitch might be getting a little too carried away
 
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andrew_qld

Senior Member
Thinking about it, maybe a cheap GSM phone with global raoming might be the go. And maybe send the vessel around Aus first as a test (or start on a 50km journey and gradually work your way up).

Sat phones are- or were- quite expensive to buy and hire. When I was based at the 4CC radio station in Gladstone (QLD Australia) we hired one to put a newsreader on a yach for the Brisbane to Gladstone Yacht race. It was about $500 AUS to hire for a week (that was about 5 years ago). I think they are still about $1000 to buy and about $1/minute to make a call. You could go down to your local Telstra or Optus shop and have a look though.

I know "Packet" telemetry is leagal on the UHF CB bands in AUS but that would only get you a 100km or so. If you have an amateur radio license then HF or VHF/UHF sats would be the go. A low power HF beacon on the 80 or 40m band (3.5MHz and 7 MHz) would be a start.

Remember if your in international waters then you are pretty well outside prosecution..
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
DPG, you are slipping into what is known in the trade as "Creeping Elegance".
This is where a project never gets off the ground because little extras and enhancements keep getting added and all that becomes of the project is a fantasy living in the mind. I'm as gulity as the rest and only get my act into gear when a deadline starts to get near. Set yourself a deadline.
If you are ever going to DO this rather than DREAM about it, you need to finalise the concept and get building.
You already know pretty much what you want. Now work out how to acheive that within whatever you have set as a realistic budget. If you are being sponsored, the sponsors will expect you to stick within budget. If you are totally self funded, then you yourself will know what the project is worth to you.
Take each aspect and solve the problem in its own right. Do not fall into the trap of allowing one area to compramise another and do them in the right order. There is no point solving the power problem before you have a hull design.
DON'T re-invent the wheel. You will have enough problems without having to solve ones that don't need solving. For example, there are plenty of satalite tracking systems ready and available off the shelf. I guess you will be using something like a 7805 regulator for the 5v rail. Did it ever occur to you to make a regulator from descrete components. No, then why do it with something like the tracking system. Your task is to integrate known and working technology into a system that will solve the problem.
Good luck.
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
the testing is going to have to be somwhat through

i was thinking of several little trips eg

1,around a bay with routes crossing the heads
2,simple little trips from a to b inside a bay on solar only
3,then on batteries and wind to simulate a solar panel failure
4,a trip out past the heads and then back in
5,from bay to bay ,a bay north of sydney to the south of sydney
6,probably a trip up the coast from sydney to brisbane and back to sydney

if it surives all that without hitch it'll go on the big voyage

to actaully see that it goes where it's suppoed to i'll have a cheap nokia with gprs enabled and ill be able to see in close to real time where it is and plot it on google earth

i imagine that most of the shore line would have mobile phone reception at least several km's off the shore

anyone know how far a mobile phone can transmit?
 

Dippy

Moderator
I hope he gets it going. And I hope he can find a wind turbine that is indestructible.
Things at sea get a real beating in the rough stuff. Good luck, but Plan B looks better.
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
DPG, most of those tests don't need doing. At least, not until you have a fully working and TESTED design that takes conditions into account. When you get to that stage, there shouldn't be any surprises.
By that stage, you will KNOW:-
It's water proof.
There is enough power to overcome the wind/current.
The GPS works.
What to do when there is no signal.
The control system sets the right course.
How much you will get from the solar panels.
etc, etc.
 

andrew_qld

Senior Member
I'll keep a lookout for it in Townsville ;)
GSM phones work out to 30km (I think it's 32km, I can't remember). The cell site sends out a timing pulse and the phone answers back. If the time taken works out to more than 30km it won't let you make a call.

I used to do 2-way radio work with clients including fishing trawlers, whale watching vessels, Air-Sea-rescue. One thing I've learned about electronics on boats is to use LOTS of (neutral cure) silicone and cover any cables in self-amalgamating rubber tabe, then overwrap in PVC tape to stop UV.

Stops everything (except for deisel exhausts disintegrating fiberglass antennas, and deckhands using coaxial cable to haul themselves up).
 
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