Flattery....

Wrenow

Senior Member
Hmmm. Saw on another site that the guys at B@sicMicr0 have a new version of the B@sic Atom, the Nano. And, guess what... Looks like it is based on the same chips as the X1 series of Picaxe (the 40 pin uses a 16F887). And these are bare chips with a bootloader, like Picaxe, not modules like their other products. And a resonably similar price point (WAY lower than their modules).

Thay say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.... Their upload circuit is a tad more complex, but otherwise a ton of similarities (as one would expect, using the same base). Not a lot of info on the main site yet...

And, here Picaxe is ready to jump ahead with the X2 series....
Haven't found anything much that is particularly useful to me over Picaxe in their implementation, and some things that seem, well, easier in Picaxe (of course, Picaxe is the dialect I have now "grown up in" and to be expected.

So there are now more than one or two folowing in the footsteps of the Picaxe crew.

Good footsteps to follow, methinks.

Cheers,

Wreno
 

gengis

New Member
The ******* is the contender for the imitation prise, at about the same cost. I'll stay with the 'axe because the support is better - and I need all I can get.

Kic claims they will make the hex code available in the future - that could make a difference. Some of the entry level Microchip programmers go for $35 and $50 with the cables and software on disk. Their $200 version looks like it might be able to clone a picaxe.
 

womai

Senior Member
The K*chip going freeware - I'd guess that means business didn't really pick up for them. Also I notice their feature set (command set) didn't really increase much since they came out. The developer probably realized that it's a lot of work and not much money to be made. Their US "distributor" (teachergeek) lists those chips as "coming soon" (which probably means, never). Overall a good argument to stick with an established source like Rev-Ed / Picaxe - the chances for long-term support and future development are just so much better (and I can't wait to put the X2 series through the paces!). Burning your own chips may be warranted of you can live with the restricted command set (e.g. no I2C, ni SPI, no timers, etc.) and need a simple platform to program. But then again, if I already have a Pic programmer then I can do my work in some compiled Basic or C right away and burn that onto the chip. Now, the Picaxe hex files becoming public domain would be another thing ;)

Wolfgang
 

pha555

Senior Member
I sell the PICAXE and will continue to do so to the exclusion of many other products.

However, I would not sell the Atom short. There is a PICAXE distributor in the US who has the new nano Atom chips for some $10.00. As noted, these are simply PICs, and although the download circuit is a bit more than the PICAXE, it isn't very much. A MAX232 and a resistor and diode. And, that is all. Of course, you can build out from there and I see a new $49.00 protoboard. But, the price of the engine (PICAXE or ATOM) is pretty much the same.

Unlike the PICAXE and Basic Stamp, the Atom does not use tokens and is thus perhaps 100 times as fast. Much more RAM.

Again, I have no great interest in the Atom. I prefer to sell for generally noncompeting markets; PIC, Arduino, BasicX and PICAXE. But, I can't trivialize it.

Peter Anderson (pha)
 

jglenn

Senior Member
Peter, I have a couple of your PICAXE proto boards and am learning to code slowly. Noticed the recent open Arduino UAV autopilot project, just a framework and requires more coding, but interesting. What do you think about the Propeller chip? I use a mix of IC's depending on the applic, raw PICS for simple fast controllers, not being into C am using Basic for some more complex programs.
 

Ralpht

New Member
jglenn
I use a mix of IC's depending on the applic, raw PICS for simple fast controllers, not being into C am using Basic for some more complex programs.
A very good philosophy jglenn.

Use the chip that does what you need and experiment with others - all part of the fun learning process.

I use Picaxe's for simple circuits that can be knocked up in a 'hurry' and do a specific job. Sometimes I use them to emulate a chip I do not have on hand, where speed is not critical. Tokenised Basic is not my favourite language but is very good for training /education purposes.

Considering the funcionality built into modern microcontrollers, Rev Ed have done a brilliant job bringing what is in reality a vey complex piece of silicon to the masses.

You will find the Propellor chip to be a very steep learning curve. Good luck with it if you decide to try it out.

As for me, Picaxe is fine and when I want to be different, I use the 6502 microprocessor and all it's variants and program it in assembler or Forth.
 

jglenn

Senior Member
Ralph: The Prop is too complex and costly for anything I need..yet. The Spin language is probably good, but like all of them full of intricacies that must be unraveled. I make solutions for industrial problems, things that have to keep working or the phone will ring. Using logic chips and opamps has an advantage over CPU's, as there is no program to fail. Also with 4000 cmos you can run at 15V which gives more noise immunity. But the flexibility of micro's often makes them mandatory.

The 6502 is the old Apple chip! It is still around? Forth is interesting, here is one ref I found:

http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/CIS/course.des/cis400/forth/forth.html

History

Forth was created in 1970 by Charles H. Moore. He wanted to create a language that would allow more direct user and machine interaction. Therefore he created Forth. He designed the language on an IBM 1130, which he considered a third generation machine. But he considered his language a fourth generation language. Because of this he decided to name the language "Fourth," but unfortunately the IBM 1130 only allowed five character file names so it got shortened to "Forth."

* Not an interpreted language, it is compiled. This increases speed.
* Very easy to learn, program, and debug like BASIC.
* Not as complex as Assembly, yet just as fast and powerful.
* Compiles into a series of subroutine calls.
* Saves processing time by having user put mathematical equations into postfix notation, so it doesn't have to transform it.
* Makes user handle stack management. This allows less processing, and helps user become more knowledgeable about the internals of a machine.
* Stack-based. Everything is done using stacks.

Areas of Application
Forth was originally designed to automate astronomy telescopes. It is also used to control appliances.
 

leftyretro

New Member
I read some about Forth about every ten years;) It has a certain appeal but I can never seem to get my mind around it enough to try it for real. The impression I get is that one uses it's very few primitive functions and builds a 'personal' language with it. Has always had it's fans but there must be some reason it never captured the mainstream. Maybe because of it's more of a DIY language then a standardized function based one.

Lefty
 

moxhamj

New Member
jglenn - I like that approach. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with good old fashioned hardware solutions. CMOS/74xx/opamps, even transistor circuits.

It depends on the problem. Want to turn on a fan at a certain temperature - I'd probably use a single op amp and a few resistors to make a schmitt trigger so there was some hysteresis and build the whole thing for under $1.

Picaxe is fantastic for a whole lot of solutions - I keep finding new problems to solve every day. Just wish there were more hours in the day...

The atom - I'm not sure where it fits in.

Re "What do you think about the Propeller chip?" Well, it can do some cool things, like drive a vga screen. But it has two new languages to learn - spin and prop assembly. I'm at the stage of dropping others' working code into a chip rather than coding anything myself. On the steep part of the learning curve. Picaxe basic on the other hand - well I can code that in my sleep *grin*.

And for those more complex projects ($50 price point), I'm using the N8VEM. It can run multiple languages (I'm into sbasic at present), but can do C and mbasic and can do Forth too.

The atom nano - where does it fit price wise and what can it do that other chips of the same price can't do?
 

Wrenow

Senior Member
Pricewise, Nano is in the Picaxe ballpark per chip (their module systems, on the other hand, are priced more like a B@sic St@mp). Download circuitry a bit more complex, but not a huge amount. Perhaps a bit more floating point type functions, but dioes not appear to be a huge amount. Haven't printed out and gone through the manual yet, though. Since it is based on the same chip (well the 40 pin is, anyway), I would think the capabiolities would be similar.

I have not found any particular reason that I saw for me to start down the road with a new learning curve, but it is interesting that BasicMicro is starting to follow in Picaxe footsteps.... And, they do not have the range Picaxe offerings.

Cheers,

Wreno
 

Ralpht

New Member
jglenn.
As you infered, the prop chip could be overkill for a lot of applications. If you had the need for its multicore abilities it no doubt would be an interesting chip to learn and use.

As the ggod Dr_Ac said, sometimes a good old fashion hardware solution is all that's needed to fix a problem. That's why one of my favourite 'languages' is Solder ;)

The 6502 dates from the Apple II, MOS Technology KIM-1 and Synertek SYM-1. I used to have a SYM and loved it. Got rid of it about 10 years ago in a fit of stupidity that I regreted ever since. I just recently bought one off Ebay.. Ahh happy again.

The 6502 is very well entrenched even now, and you'd be very suprised what it is in. I once read stats, about a year or so ago that 90% of the worlds microwaves have a variant of the 6502 in them. They are still made in the hundreds of millions, and now come as with a 16bit data buss and 24bit address buss with clock speed up to 20Mhz. Not bad for an archaic dinosaur from the dark ages of the 70's and 80's.

As for Forth, yep jglenn, that partially describes Forth. Think of a HP calculator with it's "Reverse Polish" notation and that is somewhat how you treat Forth.

Still very popular but hidden within hardware applications - the above mentioned microwaves often use a 6502 variant running Forth to control the hardware.

Forth is very control oriented, can be very hard to learn but once you get your thinking sorted out, it becomes second nature. After a session using Forth to do a project, I sometimes try to do the same thing in Basic and to me, it is much harder to get as neat a solution in Basic as I can get in Forth.
Forth is massively memory efficient and compiles down to machine code very nicely.

I grew up learning Basic first, then went to Fortran plus a few other specialised languages before I came across Forth. I never looked back.
I guess it really depends on what a person is comfortable with and what 'clicks' with you.

Sometimes the old retro chips and languages get a job done far more efficiently than todays modern implementations.

I occasionaly think that todays microcontrollers, with all the built in ports, interfaces etc have a bit of a down side. Everything is built in for you and you just have to call the appropriate routine. Do you really learn as much as we did back in the old days when we had to know how to interface to an address and data buss, work out how to decode memory and I/O then had to build your own interface etc.

I'm not knocking modern Picaxes and AVR's etc, I think they are great and save a lot of work and effort to get a job done. I just wonder if the end result is that a student etc ends up not really knowing what is happening at the grass roots level.

Showing my age me thinks:D
 
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Dippy

Moderator
I'm having an attack of deja vu.

This old chestnut has been going round and round for longer than the Propellor... how appropriate.
The propellor seems to have caused some turbulence and some cavitation with some PICAXErs. Hippy used to go on about it non-stop until.....

I can C your point but For Tran's sake this is all very BASIC.
I drove Past Cal the other day and he said "May the Forth" be with you.
Cal is very big on the environment and regularly speaks to that ex-vice-president Al Gol.

Well, I must take off my anorak now and peel some spuds.
 

papaof2

Senior Member
The things that might lead someone to the nano are 14K program space with floating point.

As yet, my PICAXE projects don't need either but it's always good to know other options.

John
 

jglenn

Senior Member
Ralph: all very true. If one understands a flip flop, that is all you need to make a computer. Or a NAND gate, the basic building block, you can make anything out of it, that is digital. But to be practical, they teach students system level topics, since that is how most create solutions these days. No more machine code or discrete addressing or I/O decoders, remember the 74LS138? In college now they have C and Windows, networks and databases. We've hired some newbies, even with a 4 year, they can use any computer program and set up Ethernets all day long, but sometimes operating a screwdriver or Oscope is a challenge. :eek:

I was not sure if the 6502 was really still in use, but found this, amazing. I don't understand how so many CPU companies survive! I used the AIM65 decades ago in a test system, but it was in basic, did not have time to learn forth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_6502

The MOS Technology 6502 is an 8-bit microprocessor that was designed by Chuck Peddle and Bill Mensch for MOS Technology in 1975. When it was introduced, it was the least expensive full-featured CPU on the market by a considerable margin, costing less than one-sixth the price of competing designs from larger companies such as Motorola and Intel. It was nevertheless fully comparable with them, and, along with the Zilog Z80, sparked a series of computer projects that would eventually result in the home computer revolution of the 1980s. The 6502 design was originally second-sourced by Rockwell and Synertek and later licensed to a number of companies; it is still made for embedded systems.

History and use

The 6502 was designed primarily by the same engineering team that had designed the Motorola 6800. After resigning from Motorola en masse, the team went looking for another company that would be interested in hosting a design team, and found MOS Technology, then a small chipmaking company whose main product was a single-chip implementation of the popular Pong video game.[citation needed]

At MOS, they quickly designed the 6501, a completely new processor that was pin-compatible with the 6800 (that is, it could be plugged into motherboards designed for the Motorola processor, although its instruction set was different). Motorola sued immediately, and MOS agreed to stop producing the 6501 and went back to the drawing board. The result was the "lawsuit-compatible" 6502, which was by design unusable in a 6800 motherboard but otherwise identical to the 6501. Motorola had no objection. However, this left MOS with the problem of getting developers to try their processor, so engineer Peddle designed the KIM-1 simple single-board computer. Much to their surprise, the KIM-1 sold well to hobbyists and tinkerers as well as to the engineers it was intended for. The related Rockwell AIM 65 control/training/development system also did well. Another roughly similar product was the Synertek SYM-1.
 

jglenn

Senior Member
Dr. Acula: I have not heard of that board, is certainly retro. CPM was the guy who lost to bill gates with DOS, he tricked a guy into selling it for $50K. How about the Rabbit board? They keep getting better and better and cheaper. And modern. But mostly C.
http://www.rabbit.com/

http://www.uelectronics.info/n8vem-single-board-computer

The N8VEM Single Board Computer is a home brew Z80 small computer project. It is made in the style of vintage computers of the mid to late 1970's and early 1980's using a mix of classic and modern technologies.

Computer is designed to be a low cost Single Board Computer with simple IO. The current design supports a UART for serial IO and PPI for parallel IO. Includes RTC for time keeping with battery back up and a small amount of NVRAM storage. While low cost is a key goal, the SBC is also designed to be a component in a larger bus based system.

Current description of the SBC is:

* Z80 CPU 4MHz
* 512K SRAM
* 1M EPROM
* 16C550 UART with connector
* 82C55 PPI with connector
* DS1302 RTC with battery backup with small amount of NVRAM
* ECB buffers, logic, and connector
* Standard PC drive connector power supply interface, +5V only
* Reset key with external connector
* Power LED
* Boots to RAM based debug monitor
* CP/M 2.2 available at monitor prompt
 

moxhamj

New Member
Ah, the good old days. When you could settle down to an evening of coding in machine code after beating off the dinosaurs with clubs. But tell that to the young people of today, and they don't believe you...

The n8vem has an onboard ram disk with half a meg of storage so you can run all sorts of programs, chain them one to the next etc. But I think the unique thing about the project is that it is non-commercial. Every bit of source code, every program etc is available for free. And you can build it with parts you can get from lots of different suppliers, so it is not tied to the fortunes of any one organisation. However, it is terribly retro and old-fashioned. The board can do the same as a complete computer from the early 80s, but there are moves afoot to squish it all down and emulate the entire thing on a propeller. Just plug in a keyboard and a vga screen into a single 40 pin chip. Not quite there yet. Running in parallel with that is a project to do the same with a 6502 board.

But in keeping with this thread, imitation is indeed the best form of flattery, because a number of instructions/software/coding/style of programming are being borrowed from the picaxe world.

Right now, I'm lost in the world of software structures for wireless mesh, and have got quite excited about the protocols used through the 70s and 80s for packet radio. Beacons, repeaters, automatic routing - these guys were doing it with wireless 15 years before the internet became popular. The protocols are very simple, and could well interface at the simple picaxe level, maybe with some slight modification so that instructions come in at 14 bytes or less.
 

papaof2

Senior Member
Good old days

Right now, I'm lost in the world of software structures for wireless mesh, and have got quite excited about the protocols used through the 70s and 80s for packet radio. Beacons, repeaters, automatic routing - these guys were doing it with wireless 15 years before the internet became popular. The protocols are very simple, and could well interface at the simple picaxe level, maybe with some slight modification so that instructions come in at 14 bytes or less.
You just reminded me that I did packet radio with a VHF handie talkie (2 meters) a long time ago - the packet radio gear (Heathkit) is probably still on a shelf in the basement. I suspect that the half-of-a-laptop sized box has been reduced to a couple of chips by now ;-)

Packet repeaters do need a bit more horsepower than a PICAXE provides.

John
WB4HLZ
 

moxhamj

New Member
"Packet repeaters do need a bit more horsepower than a PICAXE provides."

Indeed. But I think a n8vem has the horsepower. I'm looking through some source code in C at the moment. The "user" would type in simple commands and they were kept simple so users could remember them. So a picaxe can send those user commands. The n8vem can handle the backhaul stuff. And it should be possible to bring in some modern coding ideas as well eg the bittorrent idea of sending files in pieces. Looking at the specs - packet radio had 1200 baud for the users to talk to the repeaters, and the repeaters used 9600 for the backhaul comms. Picaxe speeds! Addit: I just thought of another thing. Packet radio sent strings and the end of the message was a carriage return. So a picaxe can still send long strings - send 14 bytes, then a pause to put the next bit together, then another 14, and then when it is at the end of the message, send the carriage return. Ditto when receiving.
 
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kjennejohn

New Member
My first "real computer" was a Timex Sinclair. My first didgital trainer was some TI keypad/console trainer. Can't remember what the 8-bit processor was. A TI product no doubt. 1802?

As for rating processors, in order of Bang-For-Buck, as best I know: 1. BM Atom, 2. PICAXE, 3. CUBLOK, 4. Propeller, 5. Stamp. These are the products I have a more-then-passing acquaintence with. There are of course Arduino versions and several others, but I have no, or minimal, knowledge about them.
CUBLOK is a Korean outfit. They have a combo module with processor/FPGA. The FPGA gets programmed by the processor at powerup. They both then run in tandem. The processor does the usual serial processing, while the FPGA does parallel/combinatorial processing. Intriguing idea. I assign it position 3 because I haven't really studied the compiler. If I remember, it's C-like, and I only use BASIC.
The Propeller gets fourth because, while multicore is probably the wave of the future, the learning curve is intense. And it actually isn't a parallel processor, like an FPGA with a processor core. It's eight limited-RAM processors, taking turns at access to larger ROM/RAM/ I/O, in round-Robin fashion. Still, it is an intriguing device...
As always, your opinion may vary.

As for Atom, I live, eat and breathe Atom. I bought my first Atom board, the BasicBoard, with an Atom40, from EL Products, 6 years ago. It was great. For me. It is passe now, as far as features. Small embedded processor boards with LCD, serial (and now USB), headers for servo motors, LEDs and switches, et al, are common as popcorn on a theater floor. I went on to purchase and use several Atom OEM modules for the test beds at work.

What grabbed my attention, after 3 weeks of web searches, was how DAMNED POWERFUL the compiler was. FOR FREE! Servo control, I2C, SPI, one-wire, control for stepper motors, XIN/XOUT home control, 32-bit integer and floating point math with some trig functions... the list is long. Output formatting (print decimal, hex, binary, or floating point (with decimal) values in serial outputs, add minus signs if you want), not generally available in a FREE compiler. I had to pay extra to get that in my OshonSoft compiler.
Almost all the hardware and interrupt features/functions are available from the compiler. after you run out of hardware peripherals, most of these functions are available as software controls (bitbang). So HSERVO becomes SERVO, HSERxxx (USART) becomes SERxxx (on most any pin), and HPWM becomes PWM. If you're careful in the implementation, you can have eight serial ports (half duplex), with addressing, but it's severe to code.
The typical Atom is a PIC16F. No 18Fs yet. Bummer. But at 33k instructions per second, they blow the doors off Stamps, beat a PICAXE X1, and nearly hold their own with the X2. That's the 20MHz version. The new Nano Series, at 8MHz, will still beat a PICAXE X1, and is $8 (Nano18) to $11 (Nano40). If you want a processor that breathes fire, get their Pro module. 100K+ instructions per second. 24, 28, 40-pin modules. $50 - $70. These are Renesas processors (Hitachi), but the FREE compiler for it uses the same syntax, mostly. Each processor type has a few unique commands not available to the other.

Someone mentioned the "complicated serial setup" or something. It's one pin on all models. On powerup, or reset, the bootloader comes up looking for the PC to talk to. After a suitable timeout, it runs a program if it is in the FLASH. If not, it spins its wheels. If the PC is there, they handshake and a progarm is downloaded into FLASH. At the end of the process, this serial port is available for half duplex COMs, bitbang, up to 57600 Baud. As for hardware, they use a diode to isolate the MAX232's TX line from the RX line, and a pullup. Or, in the new designs, use the parts with an FTDI USB-Serial chip.
And, if doing device-to-Atom, using TTL levels, a simple inline limiting resistor is optional, but recommended.
Some people have plunked an Atom on a breadboard and wired a serial cable to talk to a PC. NOW you need that inline resistor, say 1K Ohm. The limiting diodes inside the PIC cut off high and negative voltages to a safe level, but the limit resistor saves these diodes from blowing out.
If you check their data sheets, you'll find transistor circuits to do proper level translation without the cost and waste of a MAX232 chip, or the like.

I have read that multi-core parallel processors are the wave of the future. I guess that makes the Propeller the wave of the future for hobbyists that live and work on the ragged edge. Too bad you can't code-protect these. Commercial interests, kiss away your intellectual rights.

I would LOVE to see a comparison chart that covers BMicro products, PICAXE, Propeller, Stamp, Arduino (how do you rate a free-floating open standard?!) and who-knows-what-else. I have an early Propeller demo board. I could get a Stamp board from Radio Shock. Arduino stuff is available on Ebay, cheap. Hmmm.... But what makes a FAIR comparison? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Later!
kenjj
 

kjennejohn

New Member
A brief summary of former rant/rave

- For my purposes, based on cost, availability and skill level, the Atom Series is #1.
Where else will you find an $8 chip with a free compiler with built-in debugger and features (covered above) that can cost hundred$ elsewhere? Your needs/budget may differ.

Hey, I could spend another couple of weeks canvassing the web again, poring over manuals and example code, studying features sets, and come to a different conclusion. If my needs changed. They haven't. I live in California and Basic Micro is just 500 miles away. Parallax is closer. Shipping costs are minimal. If you live close to your parts supplier, you tend to order their product. But the Atom outperforms the Stamp handily, and the Propeller means the start of a long learning curve, and I haven't explored all the possibilities of what an Atom can do yet.

ATOM ROCKS!
Take care.
kenjj
 

Dippy

Moderator
I must say that it has an impressive command set.

I must also say that there is a BM Forum member called "kenjj (Basic Micro)" who seems to have a very 'close' relationship to BM.....
e.g.
http://forums.basicmicro.com/viewtopic.php?f=484&p=40605

kenjj ... kjennejohn .... ?

I've got nothing against enthusiasm but are we sailing close to competitiors advertising here?

Apologies, naturally, if I'm mistaken.

Tip for kjennejohn: Always use completely different Screen Names for different Forums... didn't they teach you that in the FBI?
 

Andrew Cowan

Senior Member
I have a feeling that this might be one of those occasions when the magic Rev-Ed fairy comes along and magics away a post or two...

A
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
@ Dippy ... :)

I have passed the buck on any decision making with respect to this thread to higher authorities.

Inevitably there will be discussions of competitors product and comparisons made to PICAXE and we are perhaps more tolerant to that than other forums may be. That tolerance does not usually extend to those promoting competing commercial products or encouraging PICAXE users to move to alternative products.
 
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