433mhz modules whats the furthest anyone has ever gotten?

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
i have one of those chinese cfl's in my garage so far it has lasted for 3 years and it's only ever been turned off once because the light switch is in the most annoying spot on wall next the garage door and none anywhere else

what it has to do with the rf modules and the pic is that the batteries only give me 1.2v and i need at least 2.0v just to run and about 3v for the rf modules so i'm looking at somthing to get 1.2v to 5v
 

Dippy

Moderator
I used LT1303 switched mode for 3 to 5 in the past for RF Tx and Rx modules. But it required careful pcb layout for component position and track layout. Lousy on breadboard (sorry Stan). Even a couple of mm had a HUGE effect on noise level. Big advantage using s/m for s/m (surface mount for switched mode).

LT1073 should do, but not cheap. There must be others. Just that it's important to get rid of spikies as you know.
 

Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Elementary Mycroft.
Seriously though, neat.
I must admit I though someone had posted an even simpler White LED / 1 cell driver last year??
Dippy,

You are probably thinking of the "Joule Thief". It's been making the rounds for a while and is re-discovered every six months.

Myc
 

manuka

Senior Member
DPG- suggest you try robbing a solar garden lamp for the 1.2V -> ~4V switcher circuitry. We've managed to run a 433MHz unit OK from a hacked one, but the boosted output voltage is pretty raw & spiky, so smoothing may be needed to prevent the pure brain of PICAXEs becoming confused. A typical garden lamp PV booster typically gives 4½-5V @ 10mA, which is more than enough to both charge the single NiCd & run a PICAXE driven 433MHz wireless transmitter occasionally. Naturally you need to site the PV in sunshine!

Aussie Colin Mitchell,of "Talking Electronics" fame, has outstanding insights on these PVs => http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/SolarLight/SolarLight.html

In fact he's currently (early 2008) rolling up a micro (guess which?!) & FM transmitter design that may be ideal for tight budget schools work. Yes- I twisted his arm somewhat. Stan
 
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moxhamj

New Member
I spent a few hours last night doing experiments. The challenge is a self powered radio transceiver with significant range, and one critical component is the power supply. Constraints are that their needs to be a regulated 5V supply if the device is going to do any sort of sensing (temperature etc), and there are advantages to using a single cell as it doesn't do any harm if it goes flat. The next constraint is the current draw and I'm waiting on the high sensitivity modules from china that hopefully can boost the range I already have of 400 metres. These draw 5mA and with a picaxe and maybe an op amp, I think the total current may be 8mA at 5V regulated which is 7-8V unregulated which is about 40mA from the battery.

So the experiments last night were to see how much current a simple step up converter could produce. I used a 1000uF cap and a 1k resistor as a load and the test was to get the maximum volts by tweaking components and pulse widths. The pleak current means the resistance of the coil needs to be very low which means a coil with thick (1mm) wire. I used a toroid about 3cm in diameter and it has a measured inductance of 100uH. The max efficiency peaks at 1Khz (which is a bit strange as I would have predicted 10Khz) with a square wave. The peak volts were 23V so with a 1k load that is 23mA at 23V = 529mW. The components were very simple - a BUK555 power mosfet, a 914 diode and the toroid inductor. Nothing was even remotely warm. It even managed to produce 10V output under load with the battery volts down to 0.55V.

Next I changed the driver circuit from a 555 to a 14M, and measured the output volts using a voltage divider (100k and 10k in series) into an ADC. By overclocking the picaxe at 8Mhz a 1Khz square wave can be produced with "pause 1" (there probably is another way to do this, eg sound, or underclocking and using pwm - any suggestions?). The output volts are sampled, then the picaxe runs for 20 cycles and then the output volts are sampled again. With a few lines of code the volts can be kept in a fairly tight range between 7 and 7.5V, and the stepup converter only works intermittently as needed. Given the picaxe is already needed for doing the radio comms, I think this might end up being cheaper than using commercial step up chips eg the coil is needed for both so is a BUK555 and a 914 cheaper than a TL499?

The next component is a bootstrap stepup converter to get the whole thing running in the first place. I'm thinking of using a solar light and even using the white led as the regulator. This will self start and run to about 3V which ought to be enough to get a picaxe going. The picaxe can then disable the solar light circuit (not quite sure how - probably short one bit to ground using a 547).

If that all works, the picaxe driven regulator has another advantage in that it can change the output volts. So it could run at 7V most of the time, but go up to 12V to charge up a cap to run a data packet from a higher power RF transmitter.

Then the next bit will be to build a better nicad overcharge circuit so the cells can be charged with big (1A x4) solar cells, but not overcharge. I'm thinking of two temperature sensors, one strapped to the cell and one in free air and measure the temp rise when a cell is charged. Picaxe can do that sort of thing very easily.

If this all works, maybe the 400m distance can be improved!
 

moxhamj

New Member
500 metres through trees for <$30.

Superheterodyne modules arrived from China. Used the same setup as before with the 1W Tx module and a dipole, and swapped the Superregen out and the Superhet in. Transmitting all the 14 pciaxe registers with the last two as a checksum. Have managed to get 100% reliability up to 500 metres through the trees below. Total cost $30. Has anyone tried xbee pros yet?
 

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BrendanP

Senior Member
Nice work Dr.

What do you think of the quality of the chinese made txers/rxers? Do you think theyll last in a long term app?

(Looks dry in SA, I can't see any bears fighting though. Are they still there?)
 

Dippy

Moderator
Excellent. I believe they'd be illegal for unlicensed use in UK/Europe. Dunno about anywhere else.

UK RF Dabblers read this:-
http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/apps/apnt102.htm

Long Range users read this:-
http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/apps/apnt005.pdf

And one-watt users read this:-
http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/apps/apnt012.pdf

I know you won't...

Just a question:
I remember years ago when the invasion of Far Eastern cheap Audio amplifiers happened. They quoted Watts io/p in huge numbers (check out many in-car amps), so that spotty boys could say 'mines bigger than yours'. It turned out that the numbers quoted were in PMPO/Music Power and not in RMS as used by the rest of the world. Miles different.
Does this also apply to these Chinese modules too?
 

moxhamj

New Member
Have read the docs, Dippy. Very useful.

1W is 1W as measured by current consumption, and given the Tx module is only a bit warm i'm assuming most of that is heading out into the aether.

As a general rule regarding interference, I think the idea is to only use enough power to go the distance, and no more. So I'm transmitting 500m and I want to go 500m. The nearest house is 1Km away. But in an urban situation, the distance might be only 10 metres so even 10mW might be considered a nuisance to a neighbour.

I think it is also polite to stick to the 3 seconds of data per hour rule.

PMPO has always been a bit dodgy. Is 5W RMS about 400W PMPO?

Re quality - have been running field tests on some other units for 7 months now with no failures. Biggest problem is birds messing the solar panels.

Tis a bit dry in SA. Have just had 11 days over 35C and was 40C (104F) today and they are forecasting another 5 days over 35C.
 
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BrendanP

Senior Member
have the ARRL antenna handbook at hand

I use the Radiometrix hardware Dippy.

I met the guys from Radiometrix at a trade show in Melbourne a while back. Their senior rf design engineer was there, Myk Dormer, he looked a bit like the guy out of 'Back to the the Future',or Marty Feldman in 'Young Frankenstein', had flyers and all, real english eccentric type, a very nice guy and techincally very sharp.

The RM stuff is more expensive but I think the quality is there.

(Its made in Mauritius. Got that from RM mouth's).

I know I could telephone Myk Dromer in the UK anytime or email him and ask him any tech question on ariel design/pcb design with the Radiomtrix parts, etc. and he would talk to me as long as I liked and give spot on tech advice. That sort of support costs I guess and thats why,in part at least, you pay more for RM products than the 'flying bomb' factory's offering.

Anyone playing around with antenna designs should have the ARRL antenna handbook at hand. Its the antenna builders bible. Manuka would have a very well thumbed copy I would think.
 

Dippy

Moderator
Myk Dormer is my uncle, Brendan, I'll pass on your assessment.

I just looked at a couple of modules.
The RF Solutions 458MHz licence -exempt RX/TX6000 500mW take max 1800mW power. Others (proper makes) are of the order of 25% 'efficient' (yeah I know... antenna design... swr.. losses... etc... yawn).

I'm glad Dracs using his stuff out in sticks as my experience of 25mW 434MHz has been to totally obliterate my neighbours' digital TV within 30metres. I didn't ask any further down the road just in case they were getting a lynching party together.

Personally, I think it's a great idea to buy from a 'local' manufacturer. Sadly (and avoiding politics here btw) it is getting more difficult and my Chinese isn't very good.
 

manuka

Senior Member
"Down under" the local manufacturers often already ARE Chinese! Bravo on that 500m link Dr.A How are you powering the far end? Close ups of the hardware?

XBee Pro, being 2.4GHz, has LOS issues akin to WiFi. Hence the eucalyptus wall your pix shows would make it a write off I'd say. It's easy to verify this by going for a walkabout with your WiFi laptop running NetStumbler, & seeing how the vegetation hinders reception of your home AP. Numerous antenna ideas at the infamous "wokfi" site => www.usbwifi.orcon.net.nz FWIW-I've managed 2-3km LOS across water with a basic 1mW XBee & wokfi antenna, but simple body shielding totally blocked signals at even 100m.

Yes- ARRL & RSGB etc handbook(s) indeed well thumbed. I however started (mid 1960s!) at what are today almost DC bands (3.5MHz),with rural antenna runs over 100s of metres into towering pine trees. Stan - ZL2AJZ trustee
 

BrendanP

Senior Member
Well Dippy, it really is a small world! I actually did vocallise to him my first impression of his appearance, he thought it funny if I remember correctly.
 

Zizka

New Member
Some degree of mistaken identity I fear.

Myk Dormer (who is an RF engineer for Radiometrix, and was at Melbourne) isn't anyone's uncle

(although Brendan's description is amusingly accurate. I really do look like that!)

Myk

ps. On technical issues: when attempting to get maximum range out of a band like 433MHz where the power (and transmit antenna gain) is restricted the remaining trade-off you can make is in datarate. Use a narrowband radio link, drop your data rate as far as you can and make sure you're using an efficient decoder algorithm (not just an edge triggered 'uart')
And get your aerials as high up in the air as you can.

http://www.radiometrix.co.uk/apps/apnt005.pdf

http://radiometrix.co.uk/
 

Dippy

Moderator
Blimey, thats an old thread dug up. Maybe I'm mistaken (tee hee). But my uncle does look like how Brendan described MD, so I assumed they were the same person - even though my uncle's name is Derek.

Do you know Myk Dorman, Zizka? Are you he?

And yes, the Data Rate. Dropping the rate was disussed by MD in the links I provided nearly 3 months (~5 posts) ago. One of which you yourself referred to. Apparently they weren't read :(
Ah well..
 

peterb62

New Member
"Down under" the local manufacturers often already ARE Chinese! Bravo on that 500m link Dr.A How are you powering the far end? Close ups of the hardware?

XBee Pro, being 2.4GHz, has LOS issues akin to WiFi. Hence the eucalyptus wall your pix shows would make it a write off I'd say. It's easy to verify this by going for a walkabout with your WiFi laptop running NetStumbler, & seeing how the vegetation hinders reception of your home AP. Numerous antenna ideas at the infamous "wokfi" site => www.usbwifi.orcon.net.nz FWIW-I've managed 2-3km LOS across water with a basic 1mW XBee & wokfi antenna, but simple body shielding totally blocked signals at even 100m.

Yes- ARRL & RSGB etc handbook(s) indeed well thumbed. I however started (mid 1960s!) at what are today almost DC bands (3.5MHz),with rural antenna runs over 100s of metres into towering pine trees. Stan - ZL2AJZ trustee
Dear Manuka,I am in Queensland Australia,and live in Maryborough.I am finding it hard to get around the website and am new to Picaxe,tho' not to electronics.I have the schools experimenter board and am about to get started.I'm looking for a local person to get the basics on PICAXE from and am not sure of how to search for members in my locality.I saw you were a Kiwi & thought that was reasonably close.Can you help?Thanks

Peter
 

moxhamj

New Member
A few years ago I needed some help and Manuka suggested this forum! It is a great place for answers and some of the people asking questions are school students with no electronics background at all so there is no such thing as a dumb question. Physical location doesn't matter with the internet (and I'm closer than manuka, but still 3 days drive away). Get the experimenter board working, write some code, flash some leds and you will be hooked. Any problems, just post a question.
 

inglewoodpete

Senior Member
PeterB, The AXE092 schools experimenter is a great way to start with PICAXE. The basic hardware with beeper and LEDs is all (almost) guaranteed to work. Add a short length of machine header to the board, add a breadboard and you're off and racing.
 

Denzel

Senior Member
speaking of rf

I have been battling away with rf modules and having pretty much no success, ive tried various 433mhz modules all with pretty rancid results, ill get the odd successfull transmission and then I wont be able to get it to work for days.
So, ive gone and purchased a couple of farnell (quasar QFM-TRX1-24G fm transceivers modules)
http://th.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?&sku=1517428
Anyone familiar with these or can suggest how I go about implimenting them in my project?

my requirements are...
from a computer a picaxe 08m recieves information on what to transmit via the rf transmitter. this is sent and the reciever on my robot receives it and proccesses it. in the other direction my robot, on request, sends gas, light, and temperature readings to the 08m which then transmits to the PC. I have the whole system up and running but without the RF link. i.e. where the 433mhz modules went i have the two grounds from the robot and 08m pc setup connected and the data in/out connected and this is so far working fine.
 

moxhamj

New Member
Not used those ones. What modules have you tried? Antennas? Power ratings? Part numbers? What is the range you need as it will determine the module.
 

Dippy

Moderator
On the face of it Denzel, these look quite nice (certainly cheap) little RF modules.
Of course you realise they are 2.4GHz modules don't you and they don't look fantastically easy for the novice.

Was the buying decision just the price and a 5 second glance at the spec? Oh dear.

A lot of their quality will depend on your SPI code as well as their (limited) radio range performance.

I think for general stuff and novice ease I'd have stuck to 433/434MHz with normal serial , but that's just personal preference.

A Data Sheet is always a good place to start. I don't know whether you have one so here it is:-
http://www.quasaruk.co.uk/acatalog/DSQFM-TRX-2.pdf

then to get to grips with control, you'll need the chipset datasheet:-
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/cc2500.html

I think you've bitten off quite a lot here! Good luck.
 

manuka

Senior Member
Suspect these will be akin to Bluetooth/ZigBee ranges & performance, as a transmitter power of just 1dBm (1milliWatt !) will barely get across a cluttered room at 2.4GHz. Of course diverse "wokfi" style antenna can be used ( www.usbwifi.orconhosting.net.nz)- you may get a ½ km point to point with clear line of sight (LOS).

IMHO 433 MHz is far more attractive & easier to use for PICAXE serial data.
 
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In the middle of a town, and as such, extremely built up, I have managed to get 100m out of them.

In a less built up area, the maximum I have got so far is 450m. Theoretically, they should be good for around 1km.

Why 6" aerials out of interest? You'll probably find you get better range if you use an aerial that is either a full or half (or even quarter) wavelength. I've been using bits of wire 69.1cm long, which is a full wavelength for 433.92Mhz:

100*(300,000,000 / (433.92 * 1,000,000)) = 69.14cm.

You might like to give that a try and see if your range improves, I'm guessing it will.

Jon
Now this is very interesting... I am using a transmitter and receiver thats works at 433.9Mhz and a keypad. I am encoding the keypad into binary and then encoding to a signal that can be transmitted then back to binary at the other end, to be fed into a PICAXE 28X1. The units work great, tested them out at school and also worked out that 69cm was the right aerial length. Using about 40cm I would say at the moment and I can get about 100m maximum, and that is line of sight, if buildings are in the way then this is reduced significantly. Does the power to the transmitter affect the stength of the signal, because I am using a 3V button cell mounted on the PCB as it will be a hand-held remote but it can go anything up to about 15V I think. Then I am using a PP3 battery and a 7805 5V regulator on the receiver.
 

picnut

New Member
Adding ground planes sounds great, but one must also consider the angle of radiation. Pretty good to aircraft, not so great for ground to ground comms. and forget it for submarines. Better to go for a dipole, much better to go for a yagi aerial.
 

Dippy

Moderator
I've certainly seen numerous articles that confirm your thoughts - and most people here already know the benefits of other antenna designs.

And DIY designs can be more luck than judgement.
I've used small metal 'ground planes' with whips and had measurable improvements with ground to ground links - albeit at similar heights from ground level, For all I know these metal sheets were acting as a capacitance link to genuine ground/earth.
Bottom Line: experiment and do the best you can within practical design constraints.

Some people like to surround their antenna with various pieces of kitchen cookware.

I would like to see Uncle Myk's opinion on this as he has proper electronic/mathematical/manufacturing knowledge in this field.

I've often used these references for design - as there are other aspects too which are often ignored or not realised.
http://www.radiometrix.com/content/application-notes
 

D n T

Senior Member
compensating for the curvature of the earth (and thats all)

Using HopeRF modules and the aerial supplied with them I sent a 10 variable signal then changed the variables 3 times to check. The signals were correct each time.
In the spirit of the Welligton harbour incident I sent across a bay.
Verified by GPS and google earth I got 7 Kilometres.
We had to stand on the dunes to get "line of sight".
 
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