08M challenge.

manuka

Senior Member
With the world apparently on track for ~7 Billion people,elbow room is increasingly more precious, so perhaps it's time did our bit & have a standing room only PICAXE packaging challenge? The quest- using everyday tools & approaches, design a VERY compact LED based 08M circuit Sample approach attached ! Stan
 

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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
hmmm, could be interesting to see how small somone could make a circuit, i'd draw on the 08m with silvered ink and make use of smd resistors...
 

SD2100

New Member
Use all surface mount components, forget the PCB just do point to point connections. It should be possible to make an LED flasher similar in size to an 08M DIP package. A good magnifier is needed for this type of work:eek:
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
i'd draw on the 08m with silvered ink and make use of smd resistors...
Or skip the resistors and just use an 08M and a LED. Briefly pulsing the LED would give the same level of brightness and not damage the I/O pin. I cannot take credit for that idea but I've forgotten to whom credit should go to.
 

Michael 2727

Senior Member
More info Stan please !
Is this for a single LED ? Multi LEDs ? Bi-Tri Coloured ?
or all or any of the above ?
Does the Supply or any other added features come into
the equation (the more the betterer I suppose )

I remember cutting the legs off an LM3909 I think it
was and making a very tiny LED flasher, in about 1984-5.

08M, IR chip and 3 x Tri Colour LEDs on 2 button Cells
may be interesting :p
 

Mycroft2152

Senior Member
"I remember cutting the legs off an LM3909 I think it
was and making a very tiny LED flasher, in about 1984-5."

Sounds about right, the 3909 was a pretty decent little chip, unfortunately now obsolete.

"no resistors needed"

The Picaxe can source or sink 25 milliamps current. Usually, you include a resistor to limit the current. The resistor is needed if you just use the pin turn the LED on and off.

But, if you quicly pulse (PWM) a LED attachedn directly to a pin, the effective current is relative to the on time of the PWM pulse. The same technique is used to "fade" a LED.

The Fireflys in a Jar on Bill's Artbots drives 6 LEDS by charlieplexing 3 pins on an 08M. And yes, he has posted the software.
Bill does include a very low value resistor in his circuit, but I have been building them without resistors.

One note of caution! When developing the software, include the resistor, otherwise if the pin is accidently pulled high, you can let out the magic smioke.
 
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manuka

Senior Member
Michael 2727: IMHO the spirit of such a quest should be entirely open, encouraging folks to think imaginatively. However only widely available items should be used, to avoid penalising those without access to NASA surplus & CAD/CAM facilities etc. Perhaps take as your motivator the ancient art of rice writing!

Mycroft2152: Running on 3V of course further eases any dropping resistor concerns. With flair maybe a tiny rescued PV from a calculator could be used, although these are usually just 2V @ ~3mA. How about several green LEDs acting as PVs?
 

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hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Haven't we got there in theory at least - SMD 08M, direct LED, no resistor, smallest PSU ( button cell, PV or LED PV ) ... so, unless I'm missing something; what now ?
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
Haven't we got there in theory at least - SMD 08M, direct LED, no resistor, smallest PSU ( button cell, PV or LED PV ) ... so, unless I'm missing something; what now ?
i think the idea is to have the biggest circuit possible with the smallest possible configuration, why stop at 1 led when you could have a series of say 5 or so smd leds glued to the top of a pic a button cell underneath, you'd have a small waving pov system, unclude a pair of microswitched on the top and bottom and you could do a very small pov menu system!..... ok i'm getting carried away here...:D
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
Haven't we got there in theory at least - SMD 08M, direct LED, no resistor, smallest PSU ( button cell, PV or LED PV ) ... so, unless I'm missing something; what now ?
I agree, that's it. Job done. As small as you can get without breaching Stan's rule about NASA parts. Next step is one those all-in-one 'blobs' that you get in musical Xmas cards. About £20k setup fee and £1ea thereafter.
Our equipment can now go down to 45nm, so how small do you want it?

I'm sure Microchip will be happy to sell pre-packaged dies!
Not sure if Rev-Ed could/would be able to load the bootstrap though.
 
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demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
we could get into converting injet printers into 3dprinters to print semiconductors capacitors and resistors onto many many layers of thin film around a smd 08m
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
I love how posts just mysteriously disappear with no reason... real nice...
There were reasons given - "inappropriate content". Any debate or dispute on that would have to be taken up with Rev-Ed / Technical.
 

hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
I've got it even smaller - I removed the PICAXE and used a LED with a built in current limiting resistor. It's just a battery and LED now.

I wonder how much more environmentally friendly that is, although it has to be offset against how many people it's just put out of work :)

I'm also thinking 'coil' and converting all that radio noise into energy, put the battery manuafcturers out of business too, but I think that's slipping away from 'smallest design'.
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
I've got it even smaller - I removed the PICAXE and used a LED with a built in current limiting resistor. It's just a battery and LED now.

I wonder how much more environmentally friendly that is, although it has to be offset against how many people it's just put out of work :)

I'm also thinking 'coil' and converting all that radio noise into energy, put the battery manuafcturers out of business too, but I think that's slipping away from 'smallest design'.
i think the idea was the smallest with the most features built into it
 

manuka

Senior Member
Energy scavenging?

Hippy: That's the spirit-Telsa would be proud of you. Who needs solar when all seasons 24 hr. EM waves abound! Modern low demand devices mean RF energy scavenging (a.k.a. "energy out of thin air") is increasingly viable,with the likes of nearby powerful radio stations often enough to (dimly) light LEDs. Storage & boosting to PICAXE levels may make for all sorts of fun. Energy harvesting could be the next big thing of course, & the resource suits PICAXE powering. Stan

Extra: The latest ( Nov.) "Elektor" has just crossed my desk, & I see they've an open ended challenge to power a (batteryless) ~30 W Core Duo laptop for 30 mins.
 

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Tom2000

Senior Member
That reminds me of the DEAD: "Darkness Emitting Arsenide Diode"

Originally developed to provide 100% wafer yield on combined LED/DEAD production runs, the DEAD was rapidly adopted by industry for use as power off indicators, dead battery displays, and diagnostic tools to detect circuit wiring faults, particularly in power sections. The DEAD is notable for its minimal current consumption.

Seriously...

Has anyone ever tried to grind the top and bottom off a plastic DIP body? I'm wondering just how much size reduction you might achieve before you hit the die.

Tom
 
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hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
I've split them in two with a sharp chisel ( wear safety goggles and gloves ) after excess current has taken its toll and I reckon you can go down to just above / below the pins. leaving a 1mm or so wafer of plastic.

I never thought doing that would come in useful for anything other than answering, 'what happens I split this DIP lengthwise'.
 

BeanieBots

Moderator
I've done it deliberately at the suggestion of an article in PE back in the late seventies.
In those days, long before CCD cameras, it had been discovered that a 1k memory chip could be used as a camera element. By very carefully fileing away the top of the chip, it was possible to make it thin enough to let light into the array. The elements would then change their charge content as a function of light and time. Enough to be able to produce a very crude picture!
There is very little plastic between die and the outside world. Dies were a lot bigger then though.
 

WHITEKNUCKLES

New Member
This idea interests me from a mechanical viewpoint, I fancy trying my hand at 0402 LEDs, Rapid has them, I don't as yet but the main shortage is the ability to create a worthy programme.
The photo shows my first attempt at wirewraping on an 08M, fiddley but could allow programming in situ then pruning away.

However I am concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomapowa
I love how posts just mysteriously disappear with no reason... real nice...

There were reasons given - "inappropriate content".


I am slow at reading and that message went before I could read it.

And so went my own post wherein I thanked Mycroft2152 for the link to Bill's Artbots site, I took the time to visit and expressed my opinion that it was interesting.
I accepted that others had reason to complain about Tom's post and expressed my opinion that Tom's site must do a great deal of good for Picaxe in America.
Previously I had searched for RonHacket and found that his post exists but the wording had been replaced by a "no advertising" statement by Technical and Ron's subsequent apology.
I likened Tom's post to that of RonHackett where he had intended to inform and not to advertise.
I mentioned that Kevin Goom's software download for Servo Slowdown is on Tom's site, it is well commented and I felt that it was worth the visit to the site.

Why should one member not be offered the same courtesy as another?

Perhaps I should post each of the above points as separate postings and find out where I had transgressed by the posts that get jerked.

As a measure of my concern this epistle has taken more than 2 1/2 hours to compose and has yet to be checked by my amanuensis.

Checked with corrections, 3 hours.

Dave

Mock not the aflicted; pray that you be not even as he.
 

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hippy

Technical Support
Staff member
Perhaps I should post each of the above points as separate postings and find out where I had transgressed by the posts that get jerked.
It would probably be better to email or PM Technical, at least as the first step.

I expect that posts relating to those which were found unacceptable by Rev-Ed were also removed for consistency and completeness and with an intention not to show any favour or bias for any particular viewpoint in respect of the matter of concern.

I've been in a similar position myself, where I have had to remove entire threads on my own forums because an initial posting has been completely unacceptable ( leaving me open to legal prosecution,not because of any desire to censor ) and regardless of how worthy responses to it were it was unfortunately necessary to remove those as well.

In one case, where my forums were hosted by a third party who were no longer allowing administration of the forum, and the same happened I was left with no option but to demand they remove the entire forum of face litigation against themselves. After months of trying to get any response from the host, the forum was gone in minutes.

It's an unfortunate state of affairs, that one post needing deletion leads to others having to be removed to wipe the slate clean, but that's an unfortunate fact of life. I've been a victim of it too.
 
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WHITEKNUCKLES

New Member
Thank you for your early reply, I caught it soon after you posted but needed to rest.

You have given me a new and more objective perspective of the way these things are treated.
However I was and am concerned about the different ways in which these two members were treated. It was reassuring when Technical quite rightly took a firm stand with RonHewitt's post but the recent happening was rather disturbing.

Thank you for a clear explanation of your experience and outlook.

I regret that the flow of this thread has been interrupted and hope to see new ideas to plagiarise.

Dave
 

Rickharris

Senior Member
A lot - we regularly grind the plastic off to show the kids the innards - usually a 555 as they are cheap and we have lots we don't use much now.

The IC is a small fraction of the 8 pin package - you could remove the legs and solder direct to the gold wires welded onto the substrate ending up with a package dominated by the battery size. The 1.5 volt button cells you get if you split up a 12 volt remote battery are very small.
 

Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Thank you for your early reply, I caught it soon after you posted but needed to rest.

You have given me a new and more objective perspective of the way these things are treated.
However I was and am concerned about the different ways in which these two members were treated. It was reassuring when Technical quite rightly took a firm stand with RonHewitt's post but the recent happening was rather disturbing.

Thank you for a clear explanation of your experience and outlook.

I regret that the flow of this thread has been interrupted and hope to see new ideas to plagiarise.

Dave
Hi Dave,

It was not surprising that "the" post was pulled. On a business level, "free advertising" does ot exist, someone has to pay for the service. Product placement deals are a fact of life, and large amounts money changes hands. Anytime you see a brand name product on TV or in the movies, it is paid for by the sponsor. It is a very effective metjhod of advertising, i. e., the use of Reese's Pieces in the movie ET increased sales many times.

The second part of the business reason is that by allowing the advertisement then there is a understood recommendation of the product. This wiould increase the liabilty in any legal actioon.

Rev-Ed has been very consistant in this policy over the years.

TANSTAAFL*

Myc

*
There
Ain"t
No
Such
Thing
As
A
Free
Lunch
 

Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Hi Dave,

Let me explain my main objections to "the" post. The PICAXE Forum is a phenomenal place where ideas, projects, and yes, software is freely shared. Many people spend much time helping other PICAXE users without any expected compensation.

It is very exciting to see these new projects posted, and new ideas and techniques can be readily learned.

When I first started with the PICAXE. many years ago, my first step was to do an internet search on things made with the PICAXE, to get some ideas and programming examples With only one or two exceptions, all were open and shareable.

It is really counter to the spirit of the forum to show off a "closed" project.

It is also unfortunate that some people will join a forum, just to promote a product. That is a method of SPAMMING.

I think the use of PICAXE in RC is a good application and within the ability of most RC people to build and program one themselves. It is a small niche market, that the designer wants to protect. That is his choice, Advertise and post in the RC forums, but don't preach to the choir!

As far as the impact of his designs on PICAXE use in the US, it was minimal at best. Only completed projects were sold, no educational or developmental info was provided.

Myc
 

Mycroft2152

Senior Member
Here is a mock up of 3 surface mount LEDs on the top of an 8 pin chip. With a little care a fourth smt LED could be used. Next to it is a 1F aerogel capacitor (rechargeable).

All in all. it is an interesting idea, but on a practical basis commercial LED jewelry is less expensive than the 08M alone.

http://www.flashingblinkylights.com/Lighted-Pet-Products/

As far as extracting energy from the environment, the problem is that the energy density is so low that a large collector is needed to produce a reasonable amount of power. This is true for solar cells, green leds and radio waves. The losses in just handling and storing reduces the effective amounts even further.

Great idea, but not practical on a small scale.

If this were not true, then everyone would have a DeKalb receptor on their house or car, maybe even to power their "waldos".
 

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WHITEKNUCKLES

New Member
Greetings Myc and thank you for the link, looks like some prime objects for hacking.

Advertising must work, but being a grumpy old gadjie, much media advertising turns me against the product.
Members posted interesting links in response to my query so in one sense advertising is not required.

I could not agree more about the depth of knowledge and help offered here and the forbearance shown to ignorance. Paying the appropriate rate for such counselling could bankrupt many an enquirer.

Dave
 

Fletch

Member
Back in the late 70's/early 80's there was a brief fad for electronic jewelry. Of course back then you had just a couple of colours of LED to work with and they were all pretty large, you do have to wonder what could be achieved with modern smt components. There was a pendant I remember seeing in some mag (maybe Practical Electronics?) that looked pretty funky and I think was based on a couple of 555 chips and some kind of shift register. I think you could do something far more interesting with a couple of 08's.
 

andrew_qld

Senior Member
Due to boredom, I have just finished a picaxe "boat" built from a wooden chopstick and a wooden skewer. Uses a Picaxe 28X surface mount glued to the chopstick, 30 gauge (0.2mm) enamel wire all point to point, one button, reg/green SMD LED running lights, SMD resistors, 16 white SMD LED's on the mast. The 16 wires running down the back kindof looks like a sail. Hangon, ill find a take pic with my phone..

I know its not an 08M and a bit off topic but the technique is there..

Not a very good pic, ill take a better one in the morning.
 

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Rickharris

Senior Member
It strike me that a much greater challenge in this era of being on the edge of nano technology is to build the smallest vehicle/robot that can move using commonally available technology.

Extra points for miniature walkers - after all nature does very well with ants and similar insects.
 

demonicpicaxeguy

Senior Member
It strike me that a much greater challenge in this era of being on the edge of nano technology is to build the smallest vehicle/robot that can move using commonally available technology.

Extra points for miniature walkers - after all nature does very well with ants and similar insects.
i was pondering the very same thing, i'm currently building and cnc router that will also have an inkjet printing head which i want to try and use some resins and laminates with along with silvered ink,
hopefully i'll be able to "print" parts in 3d out of plastic and literally print out entire multilayer circuit boards

the "homebuilt cnc mill/router/lathe" is starting to become a little more popular and diy 3d printers aren't very far behind, so i dare say small impressive picaxe robots might not be very far off anyway,
 
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