PICAXE Popularity

Armp

Senior Member
Excellent reply from @Hippy imo...

One factor that I don't think has been mentioned - as a 'consultant' I cannot design, or propose, a client solution that incorporates a 'single sourced, proprietary' component - unless requested by the client. Could leave me open to a number of possible legal or financial problems if there were a quality issue or supply chain constraint.

That rules out PICAXE for professional use by me. Luckily Grandsons don't count as clients :eek:

Arduinos are multisourced, and largely open source - no problems....
 
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Dippy

Moderator
That's interesting Armp.
I've missed most of this as I had Christmas to deal with so apologies if it has been covered.

What is the definition of "multi-sourced" and "single-sourced"?
What is your definition of "Open Source"? I hear so many variations...
What are the downsides of "Open Source"?
 

srnet

Senior Member
I cannot design, or propose, a client solution that incorporates a 'single sourced, proprietary' component - unless requested by the client.
So you could not propose a design based on a PIC, which is single sourced by Microchip ?

Sounds odd.
 

erco

Senior Member
Why isn't the PICAXE more 'mainstream'?
I'm doing my part to get the word out. Just wrote a 4-page article on the 20M2 for ROBOT magazine here in the states. Part one of a series. Look for it in the next issue, probably hitting the news stands end of January, whatever issue they call that, probably March/April.
 

geoff07

Senior Member
One factor that I don't think has been mentioned - as a 'consultant' I cannot design, or propose, a client solution that incorporates a 'single sourced, proprietary' component - unless requested by the client. Could leave me open to a number of possible legal or financial problems if there were a quality issue or supply chain constraint.
Interesting comment, considering how much of the professional world uses Microsoft products, which are single-source and proprietary. It surprised me when I first discovered the extent of virus problems in significant plant. Not to mention centrifuges.

Open-source has several advantages, particularly the fact that there cannot be anything untoward in the code as it is open to scrutiny. Plus you don't have to keep on buying the same old (repackaged) product every few years to feed the shareholders. The downside, if it is one, is the lack of marketing budget to push them on to the unsuspecting. Innovation, which you might think would be lacking due to the limited revenue opportunities, does not in practice seem to be an issue as there are other ways of generating revenue. The GPL (the license under which much OS code is released) is specifically designed, among other things, to prevent big corporates from buying up the competition and closing it down.

But the C vs Basic argument is a bit sterile really, as they are different animals. For the purpose of the Rev-Ed educational product line and for most of us using them for hobby work, the Picaxe Basic provides 99% of what could be needed for considerably less life-cycle effort and investment. Would I write a business system in interpreted Basic - no, though I have seen it done. Would I write a simple control system in C - I could and maybe would if I was doing it every day, in reality, no.
 

premelec

Senior Member
single source...

Many ICs are single sourced though their manufacturers often try to find second sourcing to promote them better - and there are the far east sources - and dark sources... we'll know PICAXE has 'arrived' when there are counterfeit parts! [I hope not soon...]
 

lewisg

Senior Member
...as a 'consultant' I cannot design, or propose, a client solution that incorporates a 'single sourced, proprietary' component - unless requested by the client.
As a consultant for many years I don't buy that at all.

My usual job is to sift through relevant technologies and find the most appropriate solution for my client. MOST of the time that solution will have at least some elements that are proprietary. There is little about a PICAXE that can't be replicated using other hardware if needed.

I think you are grasping at straws with this notion.
 

Paix

Senior Member
The PICAXE is merely the specific implementation of your theoretical solution

If supply of PICAXE programmed chips became unexpectedly insufficient or your needs grew to outstrip supply, then it would likely not happen overnight and you would re-impliment your product on comparable PIC or another family of chips, using either a proprietry Basic or other compiler. This is normal business continuity planning.

Even Michael Dell had to give up his student dormatory and move into larger premises. So what's the difference? :)
The argument is specious.
 

Armp

Senior Member
That's precisely why I was after a definition.... where do you draw the line...
I don't - the client does, usually with outside independent counsel.

Most mainstream IC manufacturers, including Microchip, are 'approved'. RevEd products are not on the 'list'.

Before you ask - Microsoft is approved.
 

IronJungle

Senior Member
Back to question on post #1.

Of course, I would expect this forum to be PICAXE biased, but based on the comments I can't see why the PICAXE is not more "mainstream". Does it really come down to a "real men don't code in BASIC" mentality?
 

Goeytex

Senior Member
I have done quite a bit of consulting also, and would not hesitate to recommend the use of a Picaxe it if made sense for the client. The NRE on programing alone could be a fraction of what it might be with another platform. This would generally apply to relatively low volume in house applications but probably not much more. Personally I have used the Picaxe as a development & proof of concept/demonstration platform for several Military applications. However the final products did not use a Picaxe.

The Picaxe would generally not make sense in a high volume application due to cost. A PIC in volume may cost 1/5th to 1/10th of its Picaxe counterpart. The volume savings will more than make up for the added NRE related to programming / development. This is why you don't see many Picaxe Micros in commercial/retail products ..IMO. Then again, I have not inquired into Picaxe volume pricing in quantities of 20,000 or more.

Also many applications require the use of products approved & certified for Medical, Aerospace, Automotive, Industrial, Marine, Aviation, & Military use. This would preclude the use of a Picaxe in most of these applications without special exception. But these are not the target markets for the Picaxe.

Picaxe is targeted at the educational & hobby markets and I would not venture to guess how it officially ranks on the popularity scale in either of these markets. How popular Picaxe is compared to Arduino is not that important to me. I see them a apples and oranges.
 

VK5MW

New Member
You make a good point Goeytex. I am in a situation where I am about to buy in a order of 50 or so AXE401 kits. My department are experimenting with the use of them in mining. We chose this board because it seems to be the most versatile choice. Sure most of the uses wont need so many I/O's or ADC's but they are there should we ever need them. Also the proto shields are very easy to replace with some proto board or custom pcb.

It makes me ponder ideas on what I can do to promote them locally. We are in a remote area so its not likely for them to be of interest to anyone other than the odd project here and there. So what would be worthwile? Another web vendor probably wont do much but perhaps add a little competition on pricing. My guess is that it might help a little to increase the availability too. Here in Australia it is hard to find a place to buy them without feeling like you have been ripped off if you can find them at all. Especially when you compare the prices available on line. I can order the AXE401 (kit with chip) for less than AU $8 and pass them on for about $10 to break even.

Another point might be the value in promoting them better to the education industry better. My trade school lecturer was stubborn when it came to selection of subject material. Dismissing me when I suggested that picaxe would cost less that half as much as the atmegga boards we were using. Then there was the stupid lesson where the entire class failed to program a single chip in a two hour session. All this achieved was to make us all feel like idiots. At the end of the term we were judged by our typing skills rather than what we actually knew. IMHO we were mostly pushed away from the idea of program able ic's rather than educated about them.

Now I think I just had a rare moment of inspiration. Sure the picaxe manuals are fantastic (I use them often) but has anyone developed a specific teacher/lecturer package? And if they have then to what level. I would think that the 08M2 and perhaps the 28X2 with an eprom.

Anyway just a bit of code off the cuff. Hope somebody considers it input to the topic.
 

srnet

Senior Member
Of course, I would expect this forum to be PICAXE biased, but based on the comments I can't see why the PICAXE is not more "mainstream". Does it really come down to a "real men don't code in BASIC" mentality?
There is a lot to that, an assumption it cant be any good as it programs in Basic.

And much the same point I was making about Arduino, if that were to have been designed from the outset with a basicc complier, it believe would have been far more popular with the masses, but perhaps not so popular with the (limited number of ) professionals, and in this case its the professionlas that drive the develpment.
 

manuka

Senior Member
Here in Australia it is hard to find a place to buy them without feeling like you have been ripped off if you can find them at all.
VK5MW: Fair crack of the whip mate- Australian PICAXE prices (via MicroZed) are actually pretty keen!

As a small order example consider that MicroZed offer the AXE401K at pretty much the same price as Rev. Ed ,once p&p & taxes are factored in. Aust $22 is ~£14, which approaches Rev. Ed's price (p&p extra).

Perhaps delivery times (& shipping costs) are a killer out where you are near Lake Eyre ? You can hardly blame Australian PICAXE stockists for that! You're after a 50 up AXE401K swag, but purchasing these online for ~Aust$8 (~£5) seems almost too cheap. This is ~½ their UK one off cost of £9, & you'll have to factor in significant shipping.

-has anyone developed a specific teacher/lecturer package-
What's lacking in Rev.Ed's A1 manuals? I find these a great blend of commands,code & components. From as long ago as 2002 I've developed teaching materials based around the likes of the manuals & my own investigations. These resources are essentially 08M slanted (with a "can do" level similar to many of my Silicon Chip PICAXE articles),but have continually undergone revamps & extensions - 433 MHz/08M2 etc. I've used the material extensively in NZ technical educational institutes & senior high schools-some was adopted by Victoria (Australian state) as well. Fellow Kiwi Andrew Hornblow has organised similar for youngsters.

But it's often NOT easy to just offer such resources to others. If I've been paid for such documentation then it may NOT be mine to just give away! Aside from copyright and IP (Intellectual Property),you no doubt appreciate that curriculum,cultural & "level" issues also arise. Hence the style of training manuals intended for the likes of a US technical audience may be unsuitable for engaging hormonal teens or "hands on" colonial hobbyists. Recent productivity trends towards online supporting resources (FaceBook & YouTube especially) may run into institutional policy issues too.

FWIW I've also had considerable hassles with some institutions only allowing the PICAXE program editor to be run on their LAN in scheduled & shared "computer rooms". As a result ages may be wasted wrestling with room time tabling,resources,user rights & passwords etc.Course assessment may thus mean training manual truncation,with more "fill in the blanks" & less hands on time. In today's cheap netbook & WLAN era this can be very frustrating to progressive educators & learners, even though program outcomes may seemingly be satisfied. (As recently as mid 2011 I expressed "they've ticked the boxes but hardly know what an IC looks like" type misgivings on this to a large NZ institution.)

Away from schools you also have to consider learner styles. Aside from theory versus practise, verbal versus written,pictures versus text,by the book versus self directed etc one person's way of best learning may not be anothers. Only SOME in electronics have electrons in their blood & are enthusiastically self motivated ! Many may be reluctant learners who often can-not-grasp-things-unless-they're-verbally-instructed and/or given considerable practice & heaps of personal praise. Gender issues also arise (ignoring instructions & rat's nest wiring are often a male domain),while some learners may feel "hands on" activity is beneath their cultural status. Splutter-they're the engineer responsible for design,calculations and admin,& the wiring wallah should do the assembly!

At the end of the term we were judged by our typing skills rather than what we actually knew. IMHO we were mostly pushed away from the idea of program able ic's rather than educated about them.
I share your lament. Us Kiwi PICAXErs have been VERY keen on DIY "learn by doing" approaches using solderless breadboards & Kiwi Patch Boards,and I've even converted "Snap" connector kits to better enthuse fumble fingered pre teens. Back in 2005 I'd pondered that this approach may suit an intro. training booklet...

Mmm-further thought! Perhaps you should point your trade school lecturer to these kits, as even 7 yo. kids have been able to organise PICAXE LED & sound activity with them! Of course the kids were switched on Kiwis- but...

Extra: Horses for courses - check this diploma level project I've just supervised. Stan.
 

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inglewoodpete

Senior Member
Many ICs are single sourced though their manufacturers often try to find second sourcing to promote them better - and there are the far east sources - and dark sources... we'll know PICAXE has 'arrived' when there are counterfeit parts! [I hope not soon...]
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Success (arrival) in today's world is measured in sales and marketing terms.

Rev-Ed, in my opinion, have developed a great product. They have carved out a niche in the training and hobbyist markets. However, their survival probably hinges on their proprietary firmware which they would be nervous about licensing. I would be too

"Counterfeit" parts or copies are a recognition that there is a dollar to be made from the concept. If other groups around the world think they can match Rev-Ed then they will try.
 

meridian

Member
Hi Stan,
Your mention of your series on Brain Box was timely! My grandson (7) was given a set for Christmas. As soon as I saw it, I recognised the kit from your article. As soon as I get back to the boat (in Thailand) I will make up a Picaxe module for him.

One question though - his Dad only has a Mac :-( Does the PE run on Mac? And how about the Prolific PL 2303 driver for the USB-Serial interface?

BTW I tried to send this as a DM, but your mailbox is full.

meridian
 

tinyb

Member
hi all

I think that the picaxe and the use of basic is just at the right level. In South Australia at the moment we are going through a process of getting students trade certificates for work in school. I am currently being retrained to formally teach the electronics I have been teaching for the last ten years at an 'industry standard'. I have also started to run workshops for other teachers in the use of picaxe in teaching electronics and microcontrollers.
I have resisted the retaining over the last few years because it come down to another argument about apples and oranges: do I at high school level (an lower) need to teach the students all the magical workings of the little black box? the various registers, types of memory, and other aspects you could do with the native pic but are harder on the picaxe (or it does it for you), that is for the student to learn when they choose to become an electronic engineer specialising in PIC programming producing time and application critical applications. I am employed to generate interest in the area and the picaxe is the quickest and easiest way to do this.
With respect to the picaxe vs arduino debate - two things come to mind: 1.. as many have said, horses for courses. the arduino was developed by artists and for artists based on the processing architecture which in turn was developed by artists for artist (with programming experience) based upon the java environment which evolved from the many variations of C (as many hated the Microsoft corruption during the 90s) - this is my very limited understanding of the arduino development - the picaxe was developed by rev-ed to fill a hole in schools that was not available at the time - basic stamp was too expensive at the time and pic programmers and the various languages too hard for the masses to use. 2.. the arduino development community and developers have been prolific in their publication of books and other material. Picaxe has only 2 commercial books at this time. Both good resources and useful, the 3 manuals are the best publication by far but the first one could use some updating and have more of a tutorial feel with the into circuits (hard to do with the variety of picaxes out there). The ardunio has also hit at a time when the 'open source hardware' community has exploded. I understand you question Dippy about what is 'open source' as I believe that Rev-Ed meet almost all the open source definitions except the proprietary bootstrap (and i don't want them to give that up) as they share all their circuit diagrams and many of their board designs plus they share the best bit of all the 3 wire 2 resistor programming circuit connected to a serial port of the computer (great 7 years ago when i started as i only had to pay for the 08m). Online stores like Sparkfun, adafruit, seeedstudio etc have all done extremely well out this open source environment (they share everything with you - it is just easier to buy it from them).

My last point is that we need to just keep doing what we are doing. I don't think that poo pooing the opposition is the answer. The picaxe is what it is and is extremely popular with the audience it has. I believe it will continue to grow and if articles continue in the various electronic and hobby mags around the world, this will continue to grow.

Look forward to the continued support of this forum.

thanks
tiny
 

Dippy

Moderator
Open source really confuses me (not difficult). I can see benefits but I can also see downsides if you make the nitty-gritty totally open. Maybe I've got wrong end of stick. I also the 'open' term bandied about with the intention of getting some people excited :)
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
I understand you question Dippy about what is 'open source' as I believe that Rev-Ed meet almost all the open source definitions except the proprietary bootstrap (and i don't want them to give that up) as they share all their circuit diagrams and many of their board designs plus they share the best bit of all the 3 wire 2 resistor programming circuit connected to a serial port of the computer (great 7 years ago when i started as i only had to pay for the 08m).
Regarding the download connector, making that closed source would be like making, for example, a USB-to-PS/2 adaptor (USB keyboard, PS/2 PC) closed source, in which case the schematic for that adaptor is widely available on the internet and the same would have happened if Rev-Ed never released the schematic for the download cable.

One question though - his Dad only has a Mac :-( Does the PE run on Mac? And how about the Prolific PL 2303 driver for the USB-Serial interface?
Both AXEPAD for Mac and the Prolific driver for Mac are available from the PICAXE software page at http://www.picaxe.com/Software/ but you must click the title for access to the Mac versions as the download buttons on the software index page linked all goto the Windows versions.
 

IronJungle

Senior Member
Interesting.... I'm the OP for this thread from almost exactly one year ago. I am still a huge fan on the PICAXE and, sometimes; seem a bit like an evangelist. I have brought several to the PICAXE platform due to my 'preachings'.

I was getting a bit (byte:eek:) frustrated with integer math and, equally relevant; just wanted to try something different and did a few web searches. I was really surprised with the new and lower cost Arduino offerings and decided to shell out $10 bucks to give one a go. For that price you basically get everything in a 'stick of gum' package.

Since this is a PICAXE forum I will not compare the two here. I think Arnt said it somewhere above; "Horses for courses". Both are wonderful and I still think the PICAXE is the absolute best starting point for anyone wanting to learn micros. I see comments about the documentation from Rev-Ed, but overall it is very good in comparison.

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting how product offering can change over a years time or how much they can stay the same depending on which side of the fence you are standing on.
 

Captain Haddock

Senior Member
Oh go give us a comparison, after all it's not a be all and end all statement just a personal viewpoint, even if we don't like it it's still a very valid viewpoint.
I've never experienced arduino but interested so know what a picaxer thinks of it.
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
Oh go give us a comparison, after all it's not a be all and end all statement just a personal viewpoint, even if we don't like it it's still a very valid viewpoint.
I've never experienced arduino but interested so know what a picaxer thinks of it.
I've used both.
  • Anything that the PICAXE does well is usually much easier to do on a PICAXE than on an Arduino. (i2c is a good example)
  • Many projects will require a microcontroller with more than 20 I/O pins but not many more so use of Arduino requires moving up to something that's overkill like the Arduino Mega or using a second microcontroller (can be a PICAXE!) as an i2c slave which ends up being bigger than a 40-pin microcontroller like a PICAXE-40X2. This means that the Arduino is ideal only for medium and massive projects, unless you can live with a massive oversized chip for other projects.
  • Arduino can be an absolute pain if you need to do development on multiple computers. If the sketch folder is on a pen drive or memory card or network drive or something and isn't plugged in then the software will show a message box telling you that the sketchbook folder no longer exists and it resets the sketchbook folder back to the default without even giving you a retry button. You then have to manually browse to the desired folder once you have plugged in the drive. The default sketchbook location is also %userprofile%\Documents rather than your actual documents folder (if different).
  • Arduino is much faster, especially for things that aren't built-in to the PICAXE. It's surprising how much faster a sloppy bit of code will execute on Arduino than some well-written code on PICAXE.
  • The 'compiler' and programmer software for PICAXE is much better at telling you about problems. The PICAXE compiler almost always gets the correct line and usually correctly identifies the problem (sometimes it will just say 'Syntax Error' and not much more about that line but it still gets the line right) plus when downloading the program it tells you how far into the program you are and if the download fails whether the download never started or whether it was interrupted. On Arduino, simple things like missing out the semicolon required after each command will result in the compiler complaining about multiple lines, none of which are the line with the problem. When downloading, you'll either get a successful download or an unhelpful 'not in sync' error which could mean anything.
  • Arduino completes a program download much faster than PICAXE.
  • PICAXE completes a syntax check much faster than Arduino does (but the total time used for compiling and downloading is still more on PICAXE)
  • PICAXE has a simulator and Arduino does not. PICAXE also has a better debug facility.
  • The PICAXE, being available in many different pin sizes, is ideal for all small and medium size projects except for those requiring speed.
  • The 28-pin Arduino is available in chip form cheaper than all the PICAXE X2 parts (including the 20X2).
  • Some pins on the 28-pin Arduino are wasted on silly things that you usually won't need like independent ADC Vdd and reference voltage (one pin for each of those).
  • You can use Arduino with an external crystal without being worried about it reverting back to the internal oscillator when you don't want it to do - but you have no option of using the internal oscillator (not without reprogramming with an AVR programmer).
  • You get more program memory on Arduino and no silly slots but this memory gets used up faster.
 

srnet

Senior Member
I've never experienced arduino but interested so know what a picaxer thinks of it.
I have little experience in arduino and my brain is small, and it seems to be getting smaller as I get older.

I have tried but struggle with C and the arduino 'language'

PICAXE basic ..... well I can do things with that.
 

westaust55

Moderator
In Oz, Silicon Chip still do their bit.

See a recent example amongst many:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_112702/article.html

e
Ron Hackett has a bi-monthly column "PICAXE Primer" in the US based Nuts & Volts magazine helping to wave the PICAXE flag.

EDIT:
eyesight catching me out again :(
just realised (after seeing 28 Dec on a post) that the majority of this thread was from a year ago and it has been resurected - not that there is anything wrong with that.
 

nick12ab

Senior Member
Another thing to add to my list:
Arduino is much better for doing maths with variables. More importantly, you get integers with more bits than on PICAXE and the ability to do maths in an IF statement.
 

Dippy

Moderator
I'm suffering post Christmas deja vu...
Hasn't all this stuff been said over and over?
And, after a few laps, we come back to 'Educational' and 'Horses For Courses".

All I can suggest is dig out the cash and give it a go.
So much depends on the person and the application.
For novices, hobbyists, dabblers etc. I can't think of a much easier/economical route than PICAXE.
If you want something more sophisticated (and you have the ability and perhaps a bigger wallet) or you want a turn-key solution then look elsewhere. For my own sins, I use PICs plus C & BASIC compilers.

I've never used ardweeny but I've tinkered with loads of others and one thing has struck me ... Forum Support. Free of Charge.
I can't think of another Forum where really novice questions get answered so politely and so rapidly.

Oh heck, I think I've said this before.
I guess the next lap will start shortly. I'm going in for a PIC stop :)
 

Captain Haddock

Senior Member
I've never used ardweeny but I've tinkered with loads of others and one thing has struck me ... Forum Support. Free of Charge.
I can't think of another Forum where really novice questions get answered so politely and so rapidly.
Which I have to say is worth it's virtual weight in gold.
 

Buzby

Senior Member
I was getting a bit (byte:eek:) frustrated with integer math .... wanted to try something different .... decided to shell out $10 bucks ...
I did the same, bought a $10 chip that runs much faster and has a more advanced BASIC than PICAXE, but still with a rapid development cycle and un-brickablity.

I've played around with it for a while, but don't find it as much 'fun' as PICAXE.

The IDE is nowhere near as good as PE, the documentation is both sparse and complex, the BASIC feels more 'ported' than 'optimised', and the forum is still unfocused and at a very low level of activity.

BUT - if this chip can grow a decent following it could be a real challenge to both PICAXE and Arduino.

Until then I shall stick with PICAXE.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all in the forum.

Buzby
 

IronJungle

Senior Member
I'm suffering post Christmas deja vu...
Hasn't all this stuff been said over and over?

.....I can't think of a much easier/economical route than PICAXE.
Dippy, is has been said over and over.... For me the change over the past year has been in the Dweeno price points. For $10 you get a small/tight SMD board with headers and a USB port for data and power. 14 digi I/o (6 with PWM) and 8 analog inputs.

So, lets compare that to the 18M2. About $5 for the uC and a dollar or two for a prog jack, headers, etc. You are in the same cost ball park. After you mount the 18M2 gear onto a PCB/protoboard on your own time you are maybe cheaper with the Ardunio in a package that can function as also end dev board.

I am still a PICAXE fan (a HUGE PICAXE fan!), but the I can see how the Nano shows inovation and direction at the low cost, hobby, edu market. The Nana package is much like a premade dev board (compare to PICAXE dev boards prices) and every one has a few dozen USB cables (compare to the PICAXE prog cable prices). Also, as of late other uC packages are dirt cheap; Kinetics and ST (with compass and gyro on board) for well under $15.

PICAXE may still be the easier. It is no longer the hands down cheapest. And, again, that cable... I swear that cable has to keep some people out of the game.

Still love the PICAXE. Still love the forum.
 

ZOR

Senior Member
I have never looked back on trying/using Picaxe. I originally looked at Ardunio, but was put off by costs of hardware, more intense programming, low external component requirements etc etc. Picaxe has so much going for it. In addition, maybe a bit naughty, but all I do is look at IC pins information, the manual for quick reminders of input/output interfaces, and build without schematic. I find from just pins to pins I get everything I want so quickly and devote more attention to writing code.

Added to all this is the excellent Forum here, and the readiness by others to help when needed.

Bit I don't like is VAT/Handling charge and postage, but that's life.
 

John West

Senior Member
I think the Arduino market is driven by college engineering students, and the more sophisticated programming language and chip capabilities are easily implemented within their coursework. Further, their plethora of school projects is most often self-published by each of them on the web to showcase their skills. Everything they create, good or bad, goes up on the web.
However, it's not my goal to copy their projects, but to implement my own ideas in my own projects. For me, the quickest and most convenient way of doing that is the PICAXE.
 

IronJungle

Senior Member
John:

I am pretty in a similar boat as you, but you kinda made my point. The PICAXE is aimed at education, but as you stated the Arduino market is driven by education. I would like to be in RevEd marketing meeting when they discuss market penetration, competitors, etc over the next few years.
 

geoff07

Senior Member
I don't think there is a faster way of getting a system running than Picaxe. Genie is close but only for trivial apps limited to schools. Everything else is more complex. And this forum is the best I have seen in any subject.

If you want to get a real-time Picaxe system up and running very quickly try my generic real-time system in my blog. Simples.
 

mrburnette

Senior Member
I don't think there is a faster way of getting a system running than Picaxe.
<...>
The "clone" Arduino Nano is approximately $10 U.S. with USB cable. The uC is the surface mount ATmega328P RISC device running at 16MHz. All the UNO code runs on this hardware... such as ChibiOS/RT (an RTOS), Femto OS (RTOS), as well as the learning/test iArduino environment (client/server) status and scripting. Add to that hundred of speciality liberaries and thousand of code samples.

I love PICAXE, and the little uC has a can-do attitude about it. But having every chip contain the full firmware library and the token parser and the decompression routines is too much overhead in the sole name of proprietary intellectual property. I use the PICAXE often, but usually just for fun projects ... yes, the PICAXE is a fun chip. Do I learn anything... yea, sure... sometime just playing around with algorithms or simple state logic. I suspect with the forum here as a resource, there is little that cannot be done with PICAXE but there are things that are easier to do in other environments... floating point, as just one.

The Arduino can be "easy" or it can be "hard"... depends if I want to replicate something someone else has done... piece of cake... even adapting different hardware modules is little more than changing C++ librarties... variables in Arduino have "scope", and that along puts Arduino C'ish code ahead of PICAXE BASIC. Because under Arduino is a real object oriented compiler that can be applied to naked (no boot loader) ATmel chips as well as official/clone boards!

But, starting out from scratch with an Arduino project is hard work... it is real programming. One has to put out the effort to know syntax, understand variable scope, understand object invocation, understand complex variable types. But, what power! You can play with an Arduino, but there is a racing engine in each one with RISC turbocharging.

You can take path A, path B, or walk 'em both and enjoy an expanded view of the world. Some folks will always take the path more often taken. Others are out for extreme venture.

- Ray

Recent play Digital-and-Analog-logging
 
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womai

Senior Member
The thing I like most about the Picaxe is how fast it is to get a simple project up and running. Simple things should be simple to achieve. That's why I still us it a lot for quick proof-of-concept tryouts. Speed is not a big factor for probably 95% of applications that the typical user cares about. For the rest you can always move up to a "real" PIC or AVR, but it takes longer to get a new program running (I just lost a couple hours recently doing debug because I had forgotten to turn off the analog functions on my serial pins on a PIC, which are on as power-up default, as a result the PIC did not receive anything; would not have happened on a Picaxe which takes care of setting the correct pin state for each command automatically...).

As to the discussion about Basic vs. C: Personally I use C where I can for microcontroller work and find it pretty easy to use, very compact, and not hard to read at all (I do not use convoluted statements, and liberally add comments to every other line or so), but of course I have been using C for half my life. On the PC (Windows) on the other hand I use Visual Basic. Thus I would not get into a religious war over one against the other. Modern Basic (not Picaxe Basic though) has pretty much the same possibilities to produce well structured code as C, Pascal and other languages (functions and subroutines with parameters, local variables, while loops, ability to break up a program into several files, etc.). So producing well-readable code (no matter if it is C or Basic) really depends on your programming style much more than it depends on the language syntax. I can easily write very convoluted Basic code that is way harder to understand than typical C code, meaning you may be able to read each Basic statement but won't be able to figure out what the code does. On the other hand, it's not really hard to understand that in C,

while (i = 0; i < 10; i++) { ... }

corresponds to

let i = 0
while i < 10
...
i = i + 1
wend

in Basic after you've used it a couple times. Just a somewhat more compact way to specify exactly the same sequence of actions .

One thing that cracks me up is when I hear blanket statements like "C produces more efficient code" or "Basic produces more efficient code", especially for microcontroller applications. Simply not true either way. Actually, the company whose compiler I use (Mikroelektronica, MicroC) also offers a Basic compiler and a Pascal compiler. And if you dig a bit deeper you find all three use the same core compiler, just the frontend is different, meaning code written the same way in either language will produce the same machine code, use the same space, and run at the same speed. There really isn't much fundamental difference between all these languages, they all use the same structures (functions, parameters, loops,...), only the keywords and syntax are somewhat different looking. Just refer to the example above and you see that there is a 1:1 correspondence for each code segment. (I do like the fact that C needs less typing, but fully understand if someone else prefers writing out commands in a more English-like syntax like Basic, but for a compiler that is just different strings with the same meaning). One thing people are afraid of when starting out with C are pointers, but also using these only needs a little practice and then becomes second nature very quickly; no magic involved.

As for Picaxe Basic, it is NOT a very well structured language (claims further up in this thread notwithstanding). It lacks any good way to encapsulate or protect data - no functions with function parameters (only gosub), easy to corrupt variables (because you have to manually assign names to memory locations, the compiler doesn't do it for you), no straight-forward arrays. This is ok for smaller programs (2-3 pages or so) and makes them quick to write, but for anything larger you find yourself doing many things that a compiler could do automatically (e.g. allocating space for variables, local variables,...) and thus would be less error prone. I would NOT want to write and maintain a program of 2000 lines of code or more in Picaxe Basic, that's not what it was designed to do... (remember, the origin is the Picaxe 08 wich limited you to couple 100 lines at best). Of course, as I said above, much comes down to your own style of writing code in terms of readability and maintainability, but the job is much easier in a more structured version of programming language (C, modern Basic, etc.).

Horses for courses, as has been said many times on this forum, and the Picaxe is about the best I can recommend (and have recommended often so far) for starting out (I myself got started on microcontroller on the Picaxe and am still grateful for that!), smaller projects, quick hacks, education and hobby. And once you've learned programming in one language (e.g. Picaxe Basic) well, adding a second one will be much faster and easier, and adding a third will be close to trivial.
 

Dippy

Moderator
For my sins, this is the first long post that I've bothered reading thoroughly.
I agree with just about everything you say Womai.

Maybe we forget that PICAXE BASIC is kind-of a development of Parallax Stamp BASIC - probably the 'Daddy' of educational/hobby uC products.
PICAXE is arguably a better BASIC in a much more economical package,
All the same structural points apply.
Do they (Parallax) get such regular criticism or do the users just get-on-with-it and move moanlessly to a 'better' uC as they develop?
Both have tremendous hobby and Forum support.
 
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